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Old 06-30-2012, 09:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Well, Iverson may have done a better job as a playmaker in the regular season, but Kobe's playmaking was just phenomenal during the playoffs, and while Iverson was a good playmaker, I don't see Iverson having that same success in the triangle.
AI's playmaking in the playoffs was pretty terrific too. I remember he had 15 assists in game 7 vs Toronto

Quote:
he was tough to stay with when Brown had him playing off the ball more. I also think that was a more effective way to incorporate his scoring into the team.
I definitely agree with that. Playing him at SG also made a huge difference.

Quote:
Again, as far as defensive attention, most of the league's elite receive a ton of defensive attention. Iverson did receive as much as any perimeter player, but there were other perimeter scorers playing on teams with not much offensive talent such as Carter on Toronto and McGrady in Orlando.
I think they both had more offensive pieces then AI. VC especially, who had a lot of bigs who could set screens very well and were tough, quite a few good shooters, and Corliss Williamson who was a 20 ppg scorer if he got minutes.

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Pau was great in every playoff round, he had a remarkably consistent run.
I mostly agree. I think he had some issues against Houston, but other then that he was good.


Quote:
Pau did a fine job defensively, imo in '09.
He was alright, but Duncan was far from alright. Even now he's still elite defensively, and he was even better back then.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
I don't disagree with any of this (except Kobe getting as much of a boost for being Shaq's sidekick as Miller for leading the small market Pacers), but a few things to consider and a final question on the topic:

Well, regardless of being a sidekick, Kobe was considered a major star at the time. And outside of his scoring ability, talent for making plays within or even going off on his own, his commitment to defense and talent for on the ball defense(it was great to watch Kobe hounding point guards and bothering them with his length), and finally, his clutch play throughout the playoffs. His play was somewhat inconsistent throughout the run, but remember the game-winning jumper over Kidd in game 2 vs Phoenix, the game-saving block on Sabonis in game 3 vs Portland, leading the Lakers in points(25), rebounds(11) and assists(7) in game 7 vs Portland, and his 8 point takeover in OT of game 4 of the finals to win by 2, including hitting what turned out be the game-winner? That's a pretty impressive clutch resume.

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1) Miller was the best (by far) at what he did. Come off screens and score.


True, but he was such a one-dimensional player, I have trouble putting him much higher. I'd have less of a problem if he was a great all around scorer who could create off the dribble, post up ect. And even then, there'd be a limit if he was as limited of a rebounder, playmaker and defender as he was. If you look at the players in front of him, a lot of them were on good teams.

Pippen and Rasheed Wallace were both on a team that was a quarter away from beating the champion Lakers. Wallace was long and athletic with an unstoppable go to move in the post, a mid-range jumper, but he was also unselfish and a terrific defensive player. Just much more talented than Miller, and he came to play in the WCF, dominating the Lakers power forwards in the post. This was when Sheed posted up. Pippen had lost a step, but the all around game and the basketball IQ were there.

Penny was on a 53 win Suns team that was loaded with talent, but had a ton of injuries. Penny was an effective enough player that the Suns were 33-12 with Backcourt 2000, and he still led Phoenix to a 9-6 record without Kidd, despite Tom Gugliotta also being out for the season by that point. He led the Suns past the Spurs(granted Duncan was out), with a limited Kidd only returning for the clinching game 4. And Penny played quite well in those playoffs with games like his triple double or 30+ point game as well as three straight 25+ games. He averaged 20/5/6 on 46% for the playoffs vs the league's top 2 defensive teams, and pretty much played Kobe even.

Penny had a relatively healthy year after his early injury that didn't limit him once he returned, and he was playing like Penny, just not as explosive as mid 90's Penny. But he had the passing, court vision, ball handling, post game and mid-range shot, and solid athleticism. I love versatile guards like this with size who can score, but are unselfish and have a gift for making plays.

Michael Finley played the season with plantar fasciitis, and had to assume a real ball-handling/playmaking role as well as a heavy scoring load. He averaged 23/6/5 on 46%, led a young Mavericks team to a respectable 40-42 record thanks to a tremendous late season run that seemed to change Don Nelson's mind about retirement. They probably make the playoffs in the East and this was before Dirk was an all-star and also before Nash became a full time starter.

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2) Playing that style actually creates offense for the players setting the screen (and either slipping or returning to the ball) and spot up shooters whose man was drawn to help as Miller got free.


Good point, and a reason why Indiana was the best offensive team and prolific 3 point shooting team. And playing off the ball also allowed others to handle the ball, and wasn't taking away from his teammates. This was ideal considering they had a 1 on 1 scorer(Rose), a pass-first point guard(Jackson) and a skilled post scorer(Smits), along with their physical, defensive-minded double/double PF Dale Davis, they had a very well rounded starting 5, that fit together and complemented each other perfectly.

That was an underrated Indiana team, imo, and shouldn't be grouped in with the weaker Eastern Conference teams that followed.

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3) Not Allen, Kobe or Iverson were as established as stars the way Reggie was at the time.


True, but Kobe became a big star who was talked about a lot at the time, same with Iverson, and Ray Allen was also an emerging star.

Quote:
If those players were all better than Miller, which you have made a fair case that they are, why, in your opinion, was Miller able to perform better head-to-head than those players during the playoffs?

I'm not sure, Reggie certainly shot the ball better than Kobe, but Kobe did so much from an all around standpoint, he was LA's primary playmaker on the perimeter(though Harper had a significant role running the offense that first year since Kobe was young and he knew the triangle), their best perimeter defender, their only real perimeter threat off the dribble.

Kobe didn't guard Miller either except for short stretches, he was usually guarding Mark Jackson.

I don't put a ton of weight on head to head match ups when deciding who the better player was. Miller's playoff run was certainly impressive, but when judging each of those players, I looked at their entire skill set and what they did on a basketball court at that time. I was tempted to put Miller over Allen at one point due to the superior team success and that 41 point performance, but my explanation before is what sold me, which was Allen giving you similar shooting, but better athletic ability, more ways to score and create.

And also, I'd say that Miller clearly had the superior team compared to Allen's Bucks(though I did feel that Allen's Bucks underachieved in the regular season), yet Allen's Bucks took Miller's Pacers to a ridiculously close game 5.

While The Bucks were a talented young team, I expected an experienced team like Indiana with more depth, that was constructed much better with a superior frontcourt and a respectable defense vs Milwaukee's horrible defense to beat the Bucks. In fairness, in took a monster game by Miller, and credit to Reggie to adding another huge clutch performance to his resume.

By the way, I think you did the right thing listing Miller as a more significant player, I think it's an obvious choice with that criteria. I feel that Allen was the better, more complete player, but that Miller clearly had the more significant season. His season was more significant than Iverson too.

I do understand your view that Miller had a more significant season than Kobe after your explanation, and all of Indiana's losses were games that were up for grabs entering the 4th, they lost game 4 by 2 in OT, game 2 was close, game 1 was close until Shaq took over the 4th, and they had a lead midway through the 4th in game 6, iirc, and the game wasn't decided until the last minute or 2.

So Miller's Pacers having a chance to beat the Lakers in the finals, and being on the verge of stretching the series to 7 is very significant.

Anyway, I'm enjoying your contributions to this thread. Discussions like these are exactly what I was hoping for when creating this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
AI's playmaking in the playoffs was pretty terrific too. I remember he had 15 assists in game 7 vs Toronto

True, Kobe just impressed me more.

Quote:
I think they both had more offensive pieces then AI. VC especially, who had a lot of bigs who could set screens very well and were tough, quite a few good shooters, and Corliss Williamson who was a 20 ppg scorer if he got minutes.


Williamson was good, but Carter was still lacking in offensive support overall. Oakley was never a very good post player and a poor finisher. He could pass, and would hit some jumpers, though. Antonio Davis was a pretty good offensive player, but Iverson did have Aaron McKie(15/5/5 in the playoffs) and Mutombo(14/14/3 in the playoffs) who were effective offensive players. Both were valuable for their defense, but gave Philly some offense. Mutombo got offensive rebounds, hit some sweeping hooks and would sometimes hit a short 10 foot jumper, and also made his free throws. He was an awkward, but effective offensive center. McKie handled the ball well, was a good passer/playmaker with solid size, and he hit mid-range jumpers with regularity.

Both Snow and McKie could handle the ball and do a good job running the offense which allowed Iverson to play shooting guard.

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He was alright, but Duncan was far from alright. Even now he's still elite defensively, and he was even better back then.

I'm still not sure I'd call Duncan elite by that point. I thought Pau got tougher that year, and his length made an impact. He also focused more on defense after the '08 loss. He impressed me in the finals when he arguably outplayed Dwight.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree on exactly how good Duncan's defense was. I don't deny that he was better than Pau, but Gasol's advantages as an offensive player by that point as well as his durability and stamina advantages are enough for me. And winning a title didn't hurt.

Like I said to GOAT, I appreciate your contributions to the thread, you seem like someone who has followed the NBA and various teams for quite a while.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

It seems egregious to even attempt to nitpick such lists, considering that I'm sure you've put a lot of thought and research into it, and that you are CERTAINLY more knowledgable than me.

I'll just mention the thing that immediately jumped out at me...


Allen Iverson, 2001. He was the leagues MVP. He led Philly to the NBA finals, by chucking up averages of 34/4/7 & 3stls against Carter's Raptors (On surprisingly good shooting Percentages) in the ECSF and ousting Ray Allen's Bucks in the ECFs with a 44/6/7 game 7. He also put up one of the GREAT finals peformances in NBA history in game 1 against the UNDEFEATED Lakers.

Now, there comes a point when, however much you love Duncan's and Garnett's leadership, intangibles, defense and all round game, you just just have to give in and accept that A.I was too ****ing dominant! He was the heart and soul of his team. He WILLED them to the finals.

I would rank him as 2nd best, just above Kobe at 3rd. Kobe was AWESOME against the Spurs (Throughout the whole playoffs really) but having someone as dominant as Shaq on your team eases the pressure considerably - there was relatively little double teaming going on from what I can remember (Please correct me if I've got that wrong). A.I was a one manned, relentless band.


Also, I would LOVE to hear your reasoning for Kobe "only" being 5th best in '03. I would especially love to hear why you think he was worse than Shaq at that point. Kobe was SCARY good that year and I was under the impression that Phil Jackosn handed over the reigns to Kobe early in the season - that the Lakers became HIS team. Maybe you can enlighten me on that.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:55 PM   #19
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
It seems egregious to even attempt to nitpick such lists, considering that I'm sure you've put a lot of thought and research into it, and that you are CERTAINLY more knowledgable than me.

Thank you, but I don't know that I'm more knowledgeable than you. I'm familiar with your posts and you seem quite knowledgeable.

Quote:
Allen Iverson, 2001. He was the leagues MVP. He led Philly to the NBA finals, by chucking up averages of 34/4/7 & 3stls against Carter's Raptors (On surprisingly good shooting Percentages) in the ECSF and ousting Ray Allen's Bucks in the ECFs with a 44/6/7 game 7. He also put up one of the GREAT finals peformances in NBA history in game 1 against the UNDEFEATED Lakers.

Iverson was great, but the guys he's behind are three top 10 players(Shaq, Duncan and Kobe) and a top 15-20 player all time, in or near their primes. AI ranking 5th with those 4 in front of him is quite impressive, imo.

I didn't agree with the league MVP voting, but he did an excellent job leading the Sixers to the finals. But I think a guy like Vince Carter was actually at a similar level, he had an inferior team, imo(Iverson's Sixers were phenomenal defensively and compared to any defensive team that year, while Carter's Raptors were below average statistically, and imo, maybe a slightly above average defensive team) and Vince came within 1 shot of beating Iverson's Sixers.

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Now, there comes a point when, however much you love Duncan's and Garnett's leadership, intangibles, defense and all round game, you just just have to give in and accept that A.I was too ****ing dominant! He was the heart and soul of his team. He WILLED them to the finals.

Eh, to me Duncan was a player I'd like to build a team around 10 times out of 10. His defensive impact, low post game and rebounding made him a better franchise player. I just can't say there was ever a time when Iverson was a better player than Duncan. I did think about putting Iverson over KG, he had a more notable season, but KG's all around game and defense also made it impossible for me to say that Iverson was a better player than Garnett in his prime.

Quote:
I would rank him as 2nd best, just above Kobe at 3rd. Kobe was AWESOME against the Spurs (Throughout the whole playoffs really) but having someone as dominant as Shaq on your team eases the pressure considerably - there was relatively little double teaming going on from what I can remember (Please correct me if I've got that wrong). A.I was a one manned, relentless band.

Kobe was able to play 1 on 1 more than the other perimeter stars, but watching him play, his scoring skill set and ability was second to none among perimeter players. I thought Kobe was the second best scorer in the league and best perimeter scorer. His footwork wasn't quite what it became around '03, and he wasn't quite as crafty and he hadn't added a reliable 3 point shot and extra range like he did in '03, but his first step was so explosive, he was a great ball handler, he'd elevate quick and high plus finish strong, and he already had a terrific mid-range game after shooting 500 or whatever jumpers over that offseason. While his scoring skill set wasn't as complete as '03-'09, he had his full athleticism and was more of an all around player in that postseason than at any point other than '08, and his playmaking in the '01 postseason was only matched by his '08 season. I've also never seen him attack the basket more aggressively than he did during that playoff run.

He did a remarkable job of picking his spots in transition and semi-transition and taking smart shots to fit in as the second scoring option and the team's de facto point guard while also succeeding as an efficient prolific scorer.

I've never agreed with the classification of Iverson's Sixers as a one man team. Their greatest strength was being arguably the best, most complete defensive team in the league that year, and the league's most dominant rebounding team outrebounding opponents by 4 rpg, and I thought that was a very effective way to build a team around Iverson. Iverson's efficiency hurt him a bit for me, but I understand his rare ability to get up so many shots and get so hot, which. But I'd also like to point out that Iverson's streaky style also worked in part due to Philly's defense, which would keep them in games when Iverson went cold, as well as their rebounding which got them garbage baskets when Iverson missed, allowing Philly to pull away when Iverson got hot.

Quote:
Also, I would LOVE to hear your reasoning for Kobe "only" being 5th best in '03. I would especially love to hear why you think he was worse than Shaq at that point. Kobe was SCARY good that year and I was under the impression that Phil Jackosn handed over the reigns to Kobe early in the season - that the Lakers became HIS team. Maybe you can enlighten me on that.

That was tough, and it's among the strongest top 5 I can remember. Duncan, KG and T-Mac just had remarkable seasons, all career years, except KG who maintained that level in '04.

Kobe had the better regular season than Shaq, but Shaq's value on the basketball court was still incredible. With Shaq out for the first 12 games, the Lakers started out 3-9, now that's not entirely fair to hold against Kobe, because they did still struggle when Shaq first returned to the lineup. And the Lakers season turned around when Phil gave Kobe freedom essentially making him the first option in late January when he went on the 35 and 40+ streaks.

Now that's probably what you're referring to with it becoming Kobe's team, but it's confusing. Kobe was the 1st option by default with Shaq out the 1st 12 games, and then they went back to their usual style with Shaq as the focal point when he returned, but with the Lakers not having much success, Kobe became the focal point for about a month turning around the Lakers season. According to Kobe, Phil had come to him and told him that this year, Shaq wasn't in the condition to carry the offensive load like in the past, so he apparently asked Kobe to do it. However Kobe claimed that Shaq got upset so Phil made Shaq the 1st option again, this would explain his player of the month award. But by this point, they kept winning with the team having momentum, and Shaq playing his way into shape. So it really was a 1.A/1.B situation that year, which seemed to lead to some confusion since they were basically alternating as the focal point depending on the time of year.

As for why I ended up going with Shaq over Kobe. Well, despite Shaq's subpar effort defensively this season, he ended up averaging 28/11/3 with 2.4 bpg on 57% shooting. And one thing this version of Shaq had over any other version is free throw shooting. As funny as it sounds, Shaq was such a dominant offensive player that even improving to a career best 62% like he did that year made his free throw shooting seem like a non-issue. It wasn't talked about anymore, and teams weren't going to the hack-a-Shaq.

And while Shaq's defense slipped from the 3peat, Kobe's did as well with the increased scoring load, and Shaq remained one of the league's leading shot blockers, and a more than capable post defender who would take away most big men's back to the basket game which is an advantage over what Kobe brought as a guard, imo.

And Shaq's offensive skills had improved over the years, and he was at this point, a very skilled low post player with excellent footwork, an automatic jump hook which he could get almost whenever he wanted, a terrific drop step, he used fakes well, and his baseline one-handed turnaround gave him a reliable shot over either shoulder which makes you a complete post player. That added to his greatest asset, which was strength. Despite the weight gain, he remained quick for a man his size, and he still jumped well.

His offensive game was still there, and he was probably still the most effective offensive player in the game.

Also, the playoffs were really what gave Shaq the edge over Kobe for me since as I mentioned, Kobe had the better regular season. Kobe was really disappointing during the Spurs series, and it's not just the performance, which I can excuse due to the shoulder injury and facing an excellent defender(Bowen) and a great defensive team. But he shot way too much(27 times per game) given his shooting percentage(43%), and considering Shaq was scoring much more effectively inside, but not getting anywhere near as many shots. I would've liked to have seen him show better recognition and defer to Shaq.

Shaq also showed up in the elimination game, while Kobe was a no show, particularly in the 2nd half, when the Lakers still had a chance to win the game. Kobe did have his moment in game 5 when he almost brought the Lakers back. A game that would've been a classic for Kobe had Horry's 3 not rimmed out, which was probably the difference in the Lakers not 4peating. But outside of that, Kobe was disappointing and showed a questionable approach in the series.

In the end, my gut tells me to go with the dominant big man over the high scoring guards in McGrady and Bryant, no matter how spectacular those 2 were. It's so tough considering how great those 2 were. But I'm not alone in this belief, in March 2003, Shaq was selected as the best player in a GM survey, and this was right after Kobe's 40 ppg February and before Shaq's own player of the month/superior postseason. I just think Shaq's value and how much he changed the game was off the charts. I somewhat reluctantly put KG over him for defense, the added dominance he showed that year, which along with '04 had me have more faith in him offensively during those years than at any other time, as well as KG carrying his Wolves to 51 wins.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Several disagreements, I'll point out the ones I disagree with the most.

2003 - Kobe should be ahead of McGrady. Mcgrady was never better than Kobe in any season in my opinion. Kobe should be 3rd, McGrady should be 4th, and Shaq should be 5th in my opinion for this season

2004 - I have no idea how Mcgrady is in the top 5 after having the worst record in the league. I can't imagine anyone being considered top 5 after having the literal worst record in the league. He didn't even have a good season really, he just won the scoring title. I would put JO or Dirk over him this season.

2005 - Kobe and Wade over Mcgrady. McGrady had a pretty good season this season and a much better one than he did in 2004 but I still felt Kobe and Wade were better.

2006 - Iverson shouldn't be in the top 10 and Pierce should be in over him instead. Iverson had a great season but I just thought Pierce's was better.

2009 - Gasol and Melo above Yao? Seriously? Yao only missed the last 4 games of the playoffs so I hope you didn't pick those two over him because of durability because Yao was actually more durable than Melo. Many argued that Melo wasn't even the MVP on his team that season and that Billups was. I believe Billups was top 5 in MVP voting that season while Melo missed like 10-15+ games in that regular season. I don't even know or if it is even possible to argue that they were more talented and better talented than Yao that season either because they weren't and they surely did not make a bigger or better impact. I would actually put Yao 5-6 for this season but I don't have much of a problem putting Dirk, Roy, and Deron over him but I do with Melo and Gasol.

I would also put Kobe over Wade in 2009 as kuniva mentioned.

Pretty much this and you got a close to perfectly accurate list.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

2000
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. tim duncan
4. alonzo mourning
5. kevin garnett
6. gary payton
7. chris webber
8. karl malone
9. david robinson
10. jason kidd
11. allen iverson
12. terrell brandon
13. eddie jones
14. scottie pippen
15. anfernee hardaway
16. rasheed wallace
17. vince carter
18. jalen rose
19. michael finley
20. john stockton
21. derrick coleman
22. stephon marbury
23. sam cassell
24. latrell sprewell
25. reggie miller

2001
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. allen iverson
4. tim duncan
5. vince carter
6. chris webber
7. tracy mcgrady
8. kevin garnett
9. gary payton
10. david robinson
11. ray allen
12. jason kidd
13. dikembe mutombo
14. karl malone
15. steve francis
16. baron davis
17. jamal mashburn
18. antoine walker
19. glenn robinson
20. dirk nowitzki
21. sam cassell
22. john stockton
23. antonio mcdyess
24. paul pierce
25. michael finley

2002
1. shaquille o'neal
2. tim duncan
3. kobe bryant
4. chris webber
5. jason kidd
6. paul pierce
7. allen iverson
8. baron davis
9. kevin garnett
10. gary payton
11. tracy mcgrady
12. dirk nowitzki
13. antoine walker
14. ben wallace
15. vince carter
16. elton brand
17. karl malone
18. andre miller
19. michael jordan
20. shawn marion
21. kenyon martin
22. john stockton
23. sam cassell
24. steve francis
25. jamal mashburn

2003
1. tim duncan
2. kevin garnett
3. shaquille o'neal
4. jason kidd
5. kobe bryant
6. dirk nowitzki
7. ben wallace
8. tracy mcgrady
9. allen iverson
10. chris webber
11. paul pierce
12. jermaine o'neal
13. kenyon martin
14. shawn marion
15. steve francis
16. gary payton
17. elton brand
18. baron davis
19. steve nash
20. jamal mashburn
21. stephon marbury
22. karl malone
23. michael finley
24. antoine walker
25. ray allen

2004
1. kevin garnett
2. shaquille o'neal
3. tim duncan
4. ben wallace
5. kobe bryant
6. jermaine o'neal
7. andrei kirilenko
8. jason kidd
9. ron artest
10. baron davis
11. rasheed wallace
12. dirk nowitzki
13. allen iverson
14. chauncey billups
15. rip hamilton
16. sam cassell
17. kenyon martin
18. mike bibby
19. elton brand
20. tracy mcgrady
21. lebron james
22. shawn marion
23. vince carter
24. peja stojakovic
25. lamar odom

2005
1. tim duncan
2. dwyane wade
3. kevin garnett
4. lebron james
5. tracy mcgrady
6. dirk nowitzki
7. amare stoudemire
8. shawn marion
9. steve nash
10. ben wallace
11. shaquille o'neal
12. allen iverson
13. manu ginobili
14. kobe bryant
15. chauncey billups
16. larry hughes
17. paul pierce
18. jermaine o'neal
19. gilbert arenas
20. elton brand
21. rasheed wallace
22. tony parker
23. ray allen
24. andrei kirilenko
25. rip hamilton

2006
1. dwyane wade
2. lebron james
3. dirk nowitzki
4. elton brand
5. tim duncan
6. shawn marion
7. allen iverson
8. andrei kirilenko
9. kobe bryant
10. chauncey billups
11. vince carter
12. kevin garnett
13. gilbert arenas
14. jason kidd
15. steve nash
16. shaquille o'neal
17. ben wallace
18. tracy mcgrady
19. marcus camby
20. chris paul
21. pau gasol
22. rasheed wallace
23. boris diaw
24. jermaine o'neal
25. paul pierce

2007
1. tim duncan
2. lebron james
3. tracy mcgrady
4. jason kidd
5. dirk nowitzki
6. kevin garnett
7. steve nash
8. shawn marion
9. elton brand
10. baron davis
11. tony parker
12. gilbert arenas
13. dwyane wade
14. carlos boozer
15. amare stoudemire
16. manu ginobili
17. deron williams
18. chauncey billups
19. kobe bryant
20. marcus camby
21. chris paul
22. vince carter
23. yao ming
24. josh smith
25. jermaine o'neal

2008
1. chris paul
2. lebron james
3. kevin garnett
4. kobe bryant
5. tim duncan
6. dwight howard
7. yao ming
8. paul pierce
9. pau gasol
10. david west
11. baron davis
12. tracy mcgrady
13. deron williams
14. dirk nowitzki
15. josh smith
16. lamar odom
17. amare stoudemire
18. rajon rondo
19. chauncey billups
20. rasheed wallace
21. tony parker
22. jason kidd
23. caron butler
24. carlos boozer
25. rip hamilton

2009
1. lebron james
2. dwight howard
3. kobe bryant
4. dwyane wade
5. chris paul
6. pau gasol
7. rajon rondo
8. dirk nowitzki
9. carmelo anthony
10. brandon roy
11. tim duncan
12. kevin garnett
13. deron williams
14. chauncey billups
15. jason kidd
16. tony parker
17. yao ming
18. rashard lewis
19. lamar odom
20. andre iguodala
21. josh smith
22. devin harris
23. lamarcus aldridge
24. chris bosh
25. hedo turkoglu
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
2004
6. jermaine o'neal
7. andrei kirilenko
8. jason kidd
Please explain?
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
Please explain?
on top of averaging 16.5ppg, 8.1rpg, 3.1apg, 1.9spg, 2.8bpg, he was the most versatile defender in the nba. the fact that kirilenko led such a putrid roster to above .500 also plays a huge part, considering his second and third best players consisted of carlos arroyo and greg ostertag, and the rest of the team was d-league talent. this was the first season without stockton and malone, and they only lost 5 games more than the previous season
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

where is emeka okafor?
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
on top of averaging 16.5ppg, 8.1rpg, 3.1apg, 1.9spg, 2.8bpg, he was the most versatile defender in the nba. the fact that kirilenko led such a putrid roster to above .500 also plays a huge part, considering his second and third best players consisted of carlos arroyo and greg ostertag, and the rest of the team was d-league talent. this was the first season without stockton and malone, and they only lost 5 games more than the previous season
I remember, he had a hell of a season but 7th best that season is a little too high don't you think? DO you have Darrell Armstrong that high for him leading the Magic to a 41-41 record in 2000?
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:57 AM   #26
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
2000
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. tim duncan
4. alonzo mourning
5. kevin garnett
6. gary payton
7. chris webber
8. karl malone
9. david robinson
10. jason kidd
11. allen iverson
12. terrell brandon
13. eddie jones
14. scottie pippen
15. anfernee hardaway
16. rasheed wallace
17. vince carter
18. jalen rose
19. michael finley
20. john stockton
21. derrick coleman
22. stephon marbury
23. sam cassell
24. latrell sprewell
25. reggie miller

2001
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. allen iverson
4. tim duncan
5. vince carter
6. chris webber
7. tracy mcgrady
8. kevin garnett
9. gary payton
10. david robinson
11. ray allen
12. jason kidd
13. dikembe mutombo
14. karl malone
15. steve francis
16. baron davis
17. jamal mashburn
18. antoine walker
19. glenn robinson
20. dirk nowitzki
21. sam cassell
22. john stockton
23. antonio mcdyess
24. paul pierce
25. michael finley

2002
1. shaquille o'neal
2. tim duncan
3. kobe bryant
4. chris webber
5. jason kidd
6. paul pierce
7. allen iverson
8. baron davis
9. kevin garnett
10. gary payton
11. tracy mcgrady
12. dirk nowitzki
13. antoine walker
14. ben wallace
15. vince carter
16. elton brand
17. karl malone
18. andre miller
19. michael jordan
20. shawn marion
21. kenyon martin
22. john stockton
23. sam cassell
24. steve francis
25. jamal mashburn

2003
1. tim duncan
2. kevin garnett
3. shaquille o'neal
4. jason kidd
5. kobe bryant
6. dirk nowitzki
7. ben wallace
8. tracy mcgrady
9. allen iverson
10. chris webber
11. paul pierce
12. jermaine o'neal
13. kenyon martin
14. shawn marion
15. steve francis
16. gary payton
17. elton brand
18. baron davis
19. steve nash
20. jamal mashburn
21. stephon marbury
22. karl malone
23. michael finley
24. antoine walker
25. ray allen

2004
1. kevin garnett
2. shaquille o'neal
3. tim duncan
4. ben wallace
5. kobe bryant
6. jermaine o'neal
7. andrei kirilenko
8. jason kidd
9. ron artest
10. baron davis
11. rasheed wallace
12. dirk nowitzki
13. allen iverson
14. chauncey billups
15. rip hamilton
16. sam cassell
17. kenyon martin
18. mike bibby
19. elton brand
20. tracy mcgrady
21. lebron james
22. shawn marion
23. vince carter
24. peja stojakovic
25. lamar odom

2005
1. tim duncan
2. dwyane wade
3. kevin garnett
4. lebron james
5. tracy mcgrady
6. dirk nowitzki
7. amare stoudemire
8. shawn marion
9. steve nash
10. ben wallace
11. shaquille o'neal
12. allen iverson
13. manu ginobili
14. kobe bryant
15. chauncey billups
16. larry hughes
17. paul pierce
18. jermaine o'neal
19. gilbert arenas
20. elton brand
21. rasheed wallace
22. tony parker
23. ray allen
24. andrei kirilenko
25. rip hamilton

2006
1. dwyane wade
2. lebron james
3. dirk nowitzki
4. elton brand
5. tim duncan
6. shawn marion
7. allen iverson
8. andrei kirilenko
9. kobe bryant
10. chauncey billups
11. vince carter
12. kevin garnett
13. gilbert arenas
14. jason kidd
15. steve nash
16. shaquille o'neal
17. ben wallace
18. tracy mcgrady
19. marcus camby
20. chris paul
21. pau gasol
22. rasheed wallace
23. boris diaw
24. jermaine o'neal
25. paul pierce

2007
1. tim duncan
2. lebron james
3. tracy mcgrady
4. jason kidd
5. dirk nowitzki
6. kevin garnett
7. steve nash
8. shawn marion
9. elton brand
10. baron davis
11. tony parker
12. gilbert arenas
13. dwyane wade
14. carlos boozer
15. amare stoudemire
16. manu ginobili
17. deron williams
18. chauncey billups
19. kobe bryant
20. marcus camby
21. chris paul
22. vince carter
23. yao ming
24. josh smith
25. jermaine o'neal

2008
1. chris paul
2. lebron james
3. kevin garnett
4. kobe bryant
5. tim duncan
6. dwight howard
7. yao ming
8. paul pierce
9. pau gasol
10. david west
11. baron davis
12. tracy mcgrady
13. deron williams
14. dirk nowitzki
15. josh smith
16. lamar odom
17. amare stoudemire
18. rajon rondo
19. chauncey billups
20. rasheed wallace
21. tony parker
22. jason kidd
23. caron butler
24. carlos boozer
25. rip hamilton

2009
1. lebron james
2. dwight howard
3. kobe bryant
4. dwyane wade
5. chris paul
6. pau gasol
7. rajon rondo
8. dirk nowitzki
9. carmelo anthony
10. brandon roy
11. tim duncan
12. kevin garnett
13. deron williams
14. chauncey billups
15. jason kidd
16. tony parker
17. yao ming
18. rashard lewis
19. lamar odom
20. andre iguodala
21. josh smith
22. devin harris
23. lamarcus aldridge
24. chris bosh
25. hedo turkoglu

This fool did not just say that BEN WALLACE was better than Kobe Bryant in 2004.

This guy didn't just say AK47 was a better player than Kobe Bryant in 2006, the year he went full schizo on the NBA.

You did NOT just say Billups was better than Yao in 2009.

You think Baron Davis was better than Dirk in 2008?

What NBA were you watching? In what universe was Baron Davis better than Dirk??? I'm sorry man, hate to make fun of posters, but I really, truly, believe your list is so ****ed that you should just be banned based off pure idiocy.

And that's being kind.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:19 AM   #27
oolalaa
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Thank you, but I don't know that I'm more knowledgeable than you. I'm familiar with your posts and you seem quite knowledgeable.

Well thanks. I'm a little more knowledgable than most but I think it's fair to say you are one of the very best posters on this site. I've always been an NBA fan - somewhat intermittently over the years, it has to be said - but it's only in the last 18 months or so (Not long before I joined this forum really) that I've got into researching the history of the game.

Quote:
Iverson was great, but the guys he's behind are three top 10 players(Shaq, Duncan and Kobe) and a top 15-20 player all time, in or near their primes. AI ranking 5th with those 4 in front of him is quite impressive, imo.

I didn't agree with the league MVP voting, but he did an excellent job leading the Sixers to the finals. But I think a guy like Vince Carter was actually at a similar level, he had an inferior team, imo(Iverson's Sixers were phenomenal defensively and compared to any defensive team that year, while Carter's Raptors were below average statistically, and imo, maybe a slightly above average defensive team) and Vince came within 1 shot of beating Iverson's Sixers.

I did think about putting Iverson over KG, he had a more notable season, but KG's all around game and defense also made it impossible for me to say that Iverson was a better player than Garnett in his prime.

I've never agreed with the classification of Iverson's Sixers as a one man team. Their greatest strength was being arguably the best, most complete defensive team in the league that year, and the league's most dominant rebounding team outrebounding opponents by 4 rpg, and I thought that was a very effective way to build a team around Iverson. Iverson's efficiency hurt him a bit for me, but I understand his rare ability to get up so many shots and get so hot.

I've never been a big fan of Garnett's. It used to annoy me, around '04/'05 especially, when people would say "If only KG had what Timmy has in San Antonio. They'd be calling HIM the best power forward of all time!".

NO FRIGGIN WAY!

One of the most underrated commodities for a big man to have in his game is the ability to get your ass down low, back your man into the post and grind out an easy(ish) close range hook or banker. It sounds almost too simple and obvious, but it's true - It gives you a great chance of getting an offensive rebound and tipping in a miss (Their respective Off Reb numbers are an indication of this), and an even better chance of getting yourself to the line for some cheap points. That's what Duncan has done his whole career and that's what made him a FAR more effective offensive player than KG (Far more than the numbers would indicate, even).

KG has always taken WAAY too many turnaround/fall away jumpers for my liking. He had very few proper 'back your man down post moves' from what I could tell. He had a borderline obsession with trying to spin off his opponents which rarely seemed to work against the best defenders. He did have that spin/pump fake/up and under move which he used a lot, and it was pretty effective, but he always seemed to desert it in crunch time of a close game and settle for his patented fall away instead.

Also, whilst he's undoubtedly a super competitive "warrior" who has a singular obsession with winning, I have always doubted just how great his leadership, and ability to raise his teammates level of play, was. I mean, the guy didn't make it out of the 1st round for 7 straight years, and then missed the playoffs entirely between '05 & '07!! Clearly something wasn't quite right. Perhaps he was TOO intense and homicidally driven. Maybe he sapped the life out of his teammates. Who knows.

What I do know is that I would take '01 Iverson over KG in a heartbeat. Whilst I can't disagree that the Sixers defense was a big part of the reason for them getting to the finals, I do think it's unfair to hold that against A.I. When I said that he was a "one manned, relentless band" I meant that he was their only real scoring threat. He had to carry an inordinate amount of the offense. Heck, he WAS their offense! His "poor" efficiency gets over blown, too. If we compare him to KG in '01 for example:

Iverson regular season 31.1ppg on 45% shooting (efg%)
Garnett regular season 22.0ppg on 48% shooting

Iverson post season 32.9ppg on 43%
Garnett post season 21.0ppg on 47%

There's not a huge difference in efficiency and, when you consider the scoring disparity and the fact that Iverson was relentlessly double teamed, you can see why there's any difference at all. Even Kobe only shot around 48% in both the regular season and the playoffs. And, having said all this, I think efficiency is MASSIVELY overrated, anyway. As long as you shoot it above 40%, I am far more concerned with HOW and WHEN you score your points.

I can understand having Timmy and Kobe over A.I in '01, but Garnett is a stretch too far, imo.

Quote:
That was tough, and it's among the strongest top 5 I can remember. Duncan, KG and T-Mac just had remarkable seasons, all career years, except KG who maintained that level in '04.

Kobe had the better regular season than Shaq, but Shaq's value on the basketball court was still incredible. With Shaq out for the first 12 games, the Lakers started out 3-9, now that's not entirely fair to hold against Kobe, because they did still struggle when Shaq first returned to the lineup. And the Lakers season turned around when Phil gave Kobe freedom essentially making him the first option in late January when he went on the 35 and 40+ streaks.

Now that's probably what you're referring to with it becoming Kobe's team, but it's confusing. Kobe was the 1st option by default with Shaq out the 1st 12 games, and then they went back to their usual style with Shaq as the focal point when he returned, but with the Lakers not having much success, Kobe became the focal point for about a month turning around the Lakers season. According to Kobe, Phil had come to him and told him that this year, Shaq wasn't in the condition to carry the offensive load like in the past, so he apparently asked Kobe to do it. However Kobe claimed that Shaq got upset so Phil made Shaq the 1st option again, this would explain his player of the month award. But by this point, they kept winning with the team having momentum, and Shaq playing his way into shape. So it really was a 1.A/1.B situation that year, which seemed to lead to some confusion since they were basically alternating as the focal point depending on the time of year.

As for why I ended up going with Shaq over Kobe. Well, despite Shaq's subpar effort defensively this season, he ended up averaging 28/11/3 with 2.4 bpg on 57% shooting. And one thing this version of Shaq had over any other version is free throw shooting. As funny as it sounds, Shaq was such a dominant offensive player that even improving to a career best 62% like he did that year made his free throw shooting seem like a non-issue. It wasn't talked about anymore, and teams weren't going to the hack-a-Shaq.

And while Shaq's defense slipped from the 3peat, Kobe's did as well with the increased scoring load, and Shaq remained one of the league's leading shot blockers, and a more than capable post defender who would take away most big men's back to the basket game which is an advantage over what Kobe brought as a guard, imo.

And Shaq's offensive skills had improved over the years, and he was at this point, a very skilled low post player with excellent footwork, an automatic jump hook which he could get almost whenever he wanted, a terrific drop step, he used fakes well, and his baseline one-handed turnaround gave him a reliable shot over either shoulder which makes you a complete post player. That added to his greatest asset, which was strength. Despite the weight gain, he remained quick for a man his size, and he still jumped well.

His offensive game was still there, and he was probably still the most effective offensive player in the game.

Also, the playoffs were really what gave Shaq the edge over Kobe for me since as I mentioned, Kobe had the better regular season. Kobe was really disappointing during the Spurs series, and it's not just the performance, which I can excuse due to the shoulder injury and facing an excellent defender(Bowen) and a great defensive team. But he shot way too much(27 times per game) given his shooting percentage(43%), and considering Shaq was scoring much more effectively inside, but not getting anywhere near as many shots. I would've liked to have seen him show better recognition and defer to Shaq.

Shaq also showed up in the elimination game, while Kobe was a no show, particularly in the 2nd half, when the Lakers still had a chance to win the game. Kobe did have his moment in game 5 when he almost brought the Lakers back. A game that would've been a classic for Kobe had Horry's 3 not rimmed out, which was probably the difference in the Lakers not 4peating. But outside of that, Kobe was disappointing and showed a questionable approach in the series.

In the end, my gut tells me to go with the dominant big man over the high scoring guards in McGrady and Bryant, no matter how spectacular those 2 were. It's so tough considering how great those 2 were. But I'm not alone in this belief, in March 2003, Shaq was selected as the best player in a GM survey, and this was right after Kobe's 40 ppg February and before Shaq's own player of the month/superior postseason. I just think Shaq's value and how much he changed the game was off the charts. I somewhat reluctantly put KG over him for defense, the added dominance he showed that year, which along with '04 had me have more faith in him offensively during those years than at any other time, as well as KG carrying his Wolves to 51 wins.

Great stuff. Thanks.

Last edited by oolalaa : 07-01-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

I can see you are a Shaq stan.

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Old 07-01-2012, 02:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

You do know that Wade in 2006 won the Finals and had a historically great playoff run correct?

That should have been one of the easier years to choose a number one player.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
2000
1. shaquille o'neal
2. kobe bryant
3. tim duncan
4. alonzo mourning
5. kevin garnett
6. gary payton
7. chris webber
8. karl malone
9. david robinson
10. jason kidd
11. allen iverson
12. terrell brandon
13. eddie jones
14. scottie pippen
15. anfernee hardaway
16. rasheed wallace
17. vince carter
18. jalen rose
19. michael finley
20. john stockton
21. derrick coleman
22. stephon marbury
23. sam cassell
24. latrell sprewell
25. reggie miller

One thing I've noticed with your rankings including your 90's ones, is that you sometimes give too much credit to the 2nd option on championship teams and rank the 2nd option as the second best player in the NBA such as Kobe in 2000, Robinson in '99 and Pippen in '91, '92 and '96. It's extremely rare that a team has 2 players you can even argue as the top 2 in the league, and the 2000 Lakers certainly aren't one of them. I can see the argument for Kobe at 2 in 2001, I was somewhat tempted to put him there based on his playoff run when he was the 2nd best player in the playoffs. And by that point people were regularly calling Shaq and Kobe the 2 best players in the league. But outside of '01 Shaq/Kobe, there are only a few years I can see an argument for a team having the 2 best players such as maybe '86 Bird/McHale, and maybe '11 Lebron/Wade. But I don't think a team has ever actually had the 2 best players in the league.

You used to have Kobe at number 6 in 2000, I believe, and that was much more reasonable, though Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Mourning, Malone, Webber and Grant Hill were all clearly better. I didn't have to think too hard about taking Payton over Kobe that year, but they're a little closer.

But top 2 for Kobe is beyond a stretch. He was very good, the best shooting guard that year ahead of Iverson, and the best second option ahead of David Robinson, but he doesn't have a case over those elite big men. If you want to penalize Hill for his injury in the playoffs, then I can sort of see that, but the gap between them as players in 2000 was still pretty clear. And both Payton and Kidd are close enough that I don't have a huge problem. But you're old top 6 ranking for Kobe is about 1 spot higher than the absolute highest ranking I could see anyone justifying for Kobe in 2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
Well thanks. I'm a little more knowledgable than most but I think it's fair to say you are one of the very best posters on this site. I've always been an NBA fan - somewhat intermittently over the years, it has to be said - but it's only in the last 18 months or so (Not long before I joined this forum really) that I've got into researching the history of the game.

Well, I was impressed with your knowledge, you've retained quite a bit in just 18 months.

Quote:
I've never been a big fan of Garnett's. It used to annoy me, around '04/'05 especially, when people would say "If only KG had what Timmy has in San Antonio. They'd be calling HIM the best power forward of all time!".

NO FRIGGIN WAY!

One of the most underrated commodities for a big man to have in his game is the ability to get your ass down low, back your man into the post and grind out an easy(ish) close range hook or banker. It sounds almost too simple and obvious, but it's true - It gives you a great chance of getting an offensive rebound and tipping in a miss (Their respective Off Reb numbers are an indication of this), and an even better chance of getting yourself to the line for some cheap points. That's what Duncan has done his whole career and that's what made him a FAR more effective offensive player than KG (Far more than the numbers would indicate, even).

KG has always taken WAAY too many turnaround/fall away jumpers for my liking. He had very few proper 'back your man down post moves' from what I could tell. He had a borderline obsession with trying to spin off his opponents which rarely seemed to work against the best defenders. He did have that spin/pump fake/up and under move which he used a lot, and it was pretty effective, but he always seemed to desert it in crunch time of a close game and settle for his patented fall away instead.

Also, whilst he's undoubtedly a super competitive "warrior" who has a singular obsession with winning, I have always doubted just how great his leadership, and ability to raise his teammates level of play, was. I mean, the guy didn't make it out of the 1st round for 7 straight years, and then missed the playoffs entirely between '05 & '07!! Clearly something wasn't quite right. Perhaps he was TOO intense and homicidally driven. Maybe he sapped the life out of his teammates. Who knows.

I pretty much agree with your thoughts on taking Duncan over KG. Outside of Duncan's post game, I've also preferred Duncan's shot blocking. What set him apart vs some who block more shots than him is that he wouldn't bike on fakes and had such great timing that he was pretty much the best in the league at blocking shots flatfooted. But he had more athleticism than people remember and could jump and block shots when he had to. He was just a very smart defensive anchor who would protect the basket and wouldn't reach in and pick up stupid fouls.

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What I do know is that I would take '01 Iverson over KG in a heartbeat. Whilst I can't disagree that the Sixers defense was a big part of the reason for them getting to the finals, I do think it's unfair to hold that against A.I. When I said that he was a "one manned, relentless band" I meant that he was their only real scoring threat. He had to carry an inordinate amount of the offense. Heck, he WAS their offense! His "poor" efficiency gets over blown, too. If we compare him to KG in '01 for example:

Iverson regular season 31.1ppg on 45% shooting (efg%)
Garnett regular season 22.0ppg on 48% shooting

Iverson post season 32.9ppg on 43%
Garnett post season 21.0ppg on 47%

There's not a huge difference in efficiency and, when you consider the scoring disparity and the fact that Iverson was relentlessly double teamed, you can see why there's any difference at all. Even Kobe only shot around 48% in both the regular season and the playoffs. And, having said all this, I think efficiency is MASSIVELY overrated, anyway. As long as you shoot it above 40%, I am far more concerned with HOW and WHEN you score your points.

Well, Iverson's actual FG% was 38.9% in the postseason which was low for me to not consider efficiency. And it's one of the problems I have because Iverson was streaky. But it did work in best of 7 series where he'd also go off and have big games. Which is probably why Philly had back to back 7 game series. A streaky shooter can be effective in the playoffs.

Of course, scoring clearly favors Iverson, but Garnett impacted the game in so many ways other than scoring, we're still seeing him do that in his mid 30's in Boston. His defense and rebounding made big differences, and those are aspects of the game that you don't really get anything from Iverson in, partially due to size and position. And Garnett still gives you quite a bit offensively between his passing, scoring, drawing more defensive attention than his teammates, setting screens ect.

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I can understand having Timmy and Kobe over A.I in '01, but Garnett is a stretch too far, imo.

And you're certainly not alone in this belief, so I understand where you're coming from, but Garnett's all around game in his prime makes it tougher for me to pick Iverson over him.

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Great stuff. Thanks.

Thanks, I've enjoyed the discussion.

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Originally Posted by tmacattack33
You do know that Wade in 2006 won the Finals and had a historically great playoff run correct?

Yes, that's why he raised his ranking all the way up to 2, which he wouldn't have been at after the regular season.

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That should have been one of the easier years to choose a number one player.

It was, I thought that Kobe was pretty clearly the best player back then in '06, and I still think he was. He was widely considered the best player. He was much more skilled than Wade, and a better shooter who was also a better man to man defender. Wade was on a contending, while Kobe was not.

Wade had a hell of a playoff run, and he really did play great in the ECF and Finals, but I don't see what makes him the superior player.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 07-01-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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