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Old 06-30-2012, 05:27 PM   #1
ShaqAttack3234
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Default The top 25 players from 2000-2009

I had made lists for these years 2 years ago, but was dissatisfied with them, so I decided to spend more time and redo them. Thanks to NugzHeat who helped with these lists by discussing each year and particularly some of the closer, tougher rankings.

The lists are based on both the regular season and playoffs. Players must play at least 42 regular season games and 50 total games between regular season and playoffs to qualify. And a player's ranking may drop if they fail to play 60 games, or if injuries affect their ability to perform or keep them off the court, particularly during the playoffs.

2000
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Kevin Garnett
4.Alonzo Mourning
5.Karl Malone
6.Chris Webber
7.Grant Hill
8.Gary Payton
9.Jason Kidd
10.Kobe Bryant
11.Vince Carter
12.Allen Iverson
13.David Robinson
14.Eddie Jones
15.Stephon Marbury
16.Ray Allen
17.Michael Finley
18.Rasheed Wallace
19.Penny Hardaway
20.Scottie Pippen
21.Reggie Miller
22.Latrell Sprewell
23.Terrell Brandon
24.Sam Cassell
25.Dikembe Mutombo

2001
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Allen Iverson
6.Vince Carter
7.Chris Webber
8.Tracy McGrady
9.Jason Kidd
10.Gary Payton
11.Karl Malone
12.Ray Allen
13.Paul Pierce
14.Dirk Nowitzki
15.Stephon Marbury
16.Steve Francis
17.Rasheed Wallace
18.Antonio McDyess
19.David Robinson
20.Jamal Mashburn
21.Michael Finley
22.Dikembe Mutombo
23.Glenn Robinson
24.Peja Stojakovic
25.Jerry Stackhouse

2002
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Tracy McGrady
6.Chris Webber
7.Jason Kidd
8.Paul Pierce
9.Dirk Nowitzki
10.Allen Iverson
11.Gary Payton
12.Jermaine O'Neal
13.Steve Nash
14.Vince Carter
15.Ray Allen
16.Rasheed Wallace
17.Ben Wallace
18.Elton Brand
19.Karl Malone
20.Baron Davis
21.Stephon Marbury
22.Peja Stojakovic
23.Michael Jordan
24.Shawn Marion
25.Sam Cassell

2003
1.Tim Duncan
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Tracy McGrady
5.Kobe Bryant
6.Jason Kidd
7.Dirk Nowitzki
8.Allen Iverson
9.Chris Webber
10.Paul Pierce
11.Jermaine O'Neal
12.Ray Allen
13.Ben Wallace
14.Steve Nash
15.Stephon Marbury
16.Steve Francis
17.Gary Payton
18.Peja Stojakovic
19.Jamal Mashburn
20.Shawn Marion
21.Rasheed Wallace
22.Allan Houston
23.Karl Malone
24.Michael Jordan
25.Sam Cassell

2004
1.Kevin Garnett
2.Tim Duncan
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Kobe Bryant
5.Tracy McGrady
6.Jermaine O'Neal
7.Jason Kidd
8.Dirk Nowitzki
9.Ben Wallace
10.Peja Stojakovic
11.Sam Cassell
12.Baron Davis
13.Paul Pierce
14.Vince Carter
15.Andrei Kirilenko
16.Ron Artest
17.Elton Brand
18.Ray Allen
19.Steve Nash
20.Yao Ming
21.Pau Gasol
22.Stephon Marbury
23.Rasheed Wallace
24.Lamar Odom
25.Michael Redd

2005
1.Tim Duncan
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Shaquille O'Neal
4.Steve Nash
5.Tracy McGrady
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Dwyane Wade
8.Allen Iverson
9.Lebron James
10.Kobe Bryant
11.Vince Carter
12.Amare Stoudemire
13.Ray Allen
14.Paul Pierce
15.Manu Ginobili
16.Elton Brand
17.Gilbert Arenas
18.Ben Wallace
19.Shawn Marion
20.Jason Kidd
21.Yao Ming
22.Chauncey Billups
23.Stephon Marbury
24.Grant Hill
25.Carmelo Anthony

2006
1.Kobe Bryant
2.Dwyane Wade
3.Lebron James
4.Dirk Nowitzki
5.Tim Duncan
6.Kevin Garnett
7.Steve Nash
8.Allen Iverson
9.Elton Brand
10.Shaquille O'Neal
11.Paul Pierce
12.Gilbert Arenas
13.Chauncey Billups
14.Vince Carter
15.Carmelo Anthony
16.Ray Allen
17.Shawn Marion
18.Pau Gasol
19.Yao Ming
20.Andrei Kirilenko
21.Jason Kidd
22.Manu Ginobili
23.Tony Parker
24.Michael Redd
25.Ben Wallace

2007
1.Kobe Bryant
2.Tim Duncan
3.Lebron James
4.Steve Nash
5.Dirk Nowitzki
6.Kevin Garnett
7.Yao Ming
8.Dwyane Wade
9.Carmelo Anthony
10.Tracy McGrady
11.Vince Carter
12.Gilbert Arenas
13.Amare Stoudemire
14.Baron Davis
15.Elton Brand
16.Chris Bosh
17.Jason Kidd
18.Carlos Boozer
19.Allen Iverson
20.Ray Allen
21.Deron Williams
22.Chris Paul
23.Chauncey Billups
24.Manu Ginobili
25.Tony Parker

2008
1.Kobe Bryant
2.Lebron James
3.Chris Paul
4.Kevin Garnett
5.Tim Duncan
6.Dwight Howard
7.Dirk Nowitzki
8.Steve Nash
9.Amare Stoudemire
10.Paul Pierce
11.Yao Ming
12.Deron Williams
13.Manu Ginobili
14.Allen Iverson
15.Carmelo Anthony
16.Tracy McGrady
17.Pau Gasol
18.Chris Bosh
19.Baron Davis
20.Chauncey Billups
21.Carlos Boozer
22.Joe Johnson
23.Tony Parker
24.Vince Carter
25.Ray Allen

2009
1.Lebron James
2.Dwyane Wade
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Chris Paul
5.Dwight Howard
6.Dirk Nowitzki
7.Yao Ming
8.Brandon Roy
9.Pau Gasol
10.Carmelo Anthony
11.Deron Williams
12.Tim Duncan
13.Paul Pierce
14.Chauncey Billups
15.Tony Parker
16.Steve Nash
17.Kevin Garnett
18.Chris Bosh
19.Andre Igoudala
20.Danny Granger
21.Kevin Durant
22.Vince Carter
23.Ray Allen
24.Joe Johnson
25.Shaquille O'Neal

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 09-24-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Great lists. As you well know, I'm not a fan of Bryant's, but I feel he was a better player than Wade in 2009. Dwyane definitely has the edge during the regular season, but Kobe was unreal in the postseason (in fact, I've seen people debate whether he had a top 10 playoff run for an NBA Finals MVP).

Everything else seems legit though. I'd imagine after #1-10, it got pretty tough.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Several disagreements, I'll point out the ones I disagree with the most.

2003 - Kobe should be ahead of McGrady. Mcgrady was never better than Kobe in any season in my opinion. Kobe should be 3rd, McGrady should be 4th, and Shaq should be 5th in my opinion for this season

2004 - I have no idea how Mcgrady is in the top 5 after having the worst record in the league. I can't imagine anyone being considered top 5 after having the literal worst record in the league. He didn't even have a good season really, he just won the scoring title. I would put JO or Dirk over him this season.

2005 - Kobe and Wade over Mcgrady. McGrady had a pretty good season this season and a much better one than he did in 2004 but I still felt Kobe and Wade were better.

2006 - Iverson shouldn't be in the top 10 and Pierce should be in over him instead. Iverson had a great season but I just thought Pierce's was better.

2009 - Gasol and Melo above Yao? Seriously? Yao only missed the last 4 games of the playoffs so I hope you didn't pick those two over him because of durability because Yao was actually more durable than Melo. Many argued that Melo wasn't even the MVP on his team that season and that Billups was. I believe Billups was top 5 in MVP voting that season while Melo missed like 10-15+ games in that regular season. I don't even know or if it is even possible to argue that they were more talented and better talented than Yao that season either because they weren't and they surely did not make a bigger or better impact. I would actually put Yao 5-6 for this season but I don't have much of a problem putting Dirk, Roy, and Deron over him but I do with Melo and Gasol.

I would also put Kobe over Wade in 2009 as kuniva mentioned.

Last edited by StateOfMind12 : 06-30-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Good list, but here's a couple of my bigger disagreements
01 Kobe should not be that high. I can't see him carrying AI's 01 team as far as Iverson did, and I can't see him being as productive as KG. He's right there with TMac to me. He had a better playoff run then some of the guys you listed him over, but he didn't reproduce those results again until far later, which to me means he just got hot.
06 I'd switch Nash and Dirk. Dirk won something like 5 more games then Nash with a more talented team.
In 09, I think Yao deserve to be considerably higher. That was probably his second best season, and I dont think there is another player you could switch him with that could create that mix of offense and defensive impact. Borderline top 5 to me. Actually, I just don't agree with the 09 list in general. I wouldn't have Pau nearly as high, he was below Duncan to me quite clearly. Nash at 16 is quite brutal. He had a mediocre start when he had a coach who seemed like he was trying run the team into the ground, but other then that he was basically the same as 08 Steve.
I don't agree with CP3 being that high in 08, but I'm in a very small minority so Ill leave it alone lol.

Last edited by magnax1 : 06-30-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

I can't imagine taking the time to research all of those seasons. However, I would generally agree with the Top-3 in virtually every one of them.

Too bad Garnett was saddled with average to poor rosters for much of his career.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
2000
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Tim Duncan
3.Kevin Garnett
4.Alonzo Mourning
5.Karl Malone
6.Chris Webber
7.Grant Hill
8.Gary Payton
9.Jason Kidd
10.Kobe Bryant
11.Vince Carter
12.Allen Iverson
13.David Robinson
14.Eddie Jones
15.Stephon Marbury
16.Ray Allen
17.Michael Finley
18.Rasheed Wallace
19.Penny Hardaway
20.Scottie Pippen
21.Reggie Miller
22.Latrell Sorewell
23.Terrell Brandon
24.Sam Cassell
25.Dikembe Mutombo

I thought I'd let the guy who put substantial time into this do the critiquing so without looking at your list, I put my own top twenty together based on my yearly top ten most significant players and a quick overview of the season (plus my recollection of that year) to come up with a top 20 to compare to yours. Here it is...

My top twenty for 2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
6. Webber
7. Payton
8. Malone
9. Iverson
10. Kidd
11. Kobe
12. Hill
13. Robinson
14. Carter
15. Rasheed
16. Marbury
17. Allen
18. E. Jones
19. Sprewell
20. J. Rose

Actually pretty darn close.

The major differences, and my questions about them are as follows...tell me what you learned and why I am wrong.

1. The obvious one. Reggie Miller. I have him as a top five based on importance, but I understand you have different criteria so I can see Webber, Malone and Payton over him. But how are guys like Iverson and Kobe and Allen ahead of him? Let alone Jones, Pippen, Penny, Finley, Marbury etc.

The first round came down to one game and the Bucks team outplayed the Pacers team but Ray Allen shot 6-21 and Reggie Miller 15-25 for 41 points and the Pacers won.

In the second round Miller outplayed Iverson throughout. He had 40 in game one, the Pacers won in a route in game two. Miller matched Iverson's 29 points and led the Pacers to a fourth quarter rally to steal game three. The Sixers won game four despite Ai's worst game of the series. The Sixers won game five with Miller out of the line-up. Reggie goes for 25 in game six and AI for 18 on 7-20 shooting as the Pacers close it out.

In the Finals Reggie averaged 24-3-4 on 42/38/97 shooting while Kobe averaged 16-4-4 on 37/20/91 shooting

Reggie was the leader and go-to-guy in the clitch all season and best player in the playoffs for the team that won the most games in the East and went to the NBA finals. He can't be outside the top 20.

2. Why Duncan over Garnett despite the injury for the playoffs?

3. Eddie Jones a bit overrated? I thought that all-NBA selection was a stretch. Not an efficient scorer or a guy you can count on down the stretch to create his or others shots.

4. Grant Hill too high? Now it's true he scored more than he ever had before and his shot had shown solid improvement all-around that season. (He added the slow dribble pull-up three from the top in his arsenal that year) But Hill had his worst season rebounding and passing since his rookie year and he too was injured for the playoffs.

5. Why guys like TB, Cassell, Pippen, Mutombo over Jalen Rose, who had one of his best years and a strong playoff run to match it?
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Great lists. As you well know, I'm not a fan of Bryant's, but I feel he was a better player than Wade in 2009. Dwyane definitely has the edge during the regular season, but Kobe was unreal in the postseason (in fact, I've seen people debate whether he had a top 10 playoff run for an NBA Finals MVP).


I usually go with Kobe over Wade, I'd have Kobe back over Wade in 2010, but I'd have Wade in 2011, and Kobe in 2012.

But Wade had stepped up his defensive effort this season, had greatly improved his jumper and played in control a lot more than when he was a young player while regaining that same explosiveness off the dribble. Wade's explosiveness and defense combined with his excellent mid-range shooting that season gave him the edge. Usually, Kobe had a significant edge shooting the ball, and he was still the better 3 point shooter and more skilled overall, but Wade's athleticism and ability off the dribble, and individual dominance makes me favor him slightly.

It's very close, though in '09.;

Quote:
Everything else seems legit though. I'd imagine after #1-10, it got pretty tough.

Yeah, it gets tougher the farther you go down on the list because you start comparing players in different roles and many are very close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
2003 - Kobe should be ahead of McGrady. Mcgrady was never better than Kobe in any season in my opinion. Kobe should be 3rd, McGrady should be 4th, and Shaq should be 5th in my opinion for this season

I went with McGrady over Kobe because he was more consistent throughout the season and less disappointing in the playoffs.

Kobe at his absolute best during the 40 point streaks has the edge, but I'll value season long consistency. And McGrady's numbers are a tiebreaker because watching both of the players, they're too close to call. Just depends on what night you watch them because they do all of the same things well. Mid-range and long range shooting, creating off the dribble, finishing, footwork, ball handling and playmaking. They both specialized in it.

Quote:
2004 - I have no idea how Mcgrady is in the top 5 after having the worst record in the league. I can't imagine anyone being considered top 5 after having the literal worst record in the league. He didn't even have a good season really, he just won the scoring title. I would put JO or Dirk over him this season.


As bad as McGrady's team was, they would've been that much worse without him. They weren't even competitive when McGrady was out. McGrady had made them a respectable offensive team, but they were about as bad as any offensive team when he was out, and they were the worst defensive team in the league that year, and not only did they not get better when T-Mac was out, but they got worse defensively.

They were 2-13 without him, but they lost their first 13, and their only wins came against a 23-59 Bulls team, and a 33-49 Sixer team that didn't have Allen Iverson or Glenn Robinson in their last 2 games of the season.

T-Mac also got top 5 because it was just a really bad year for individual players. Dirk didn't have a great year himself, and I like Jermaine O'Neal for his offensive skills and defensive ability, but he settled for too many jumpers, imo, and his efficiency was terrible for a big man.

Quote:
2005 - Kobe and Wade over Mcgrady. McGrady had a pretty good season this season and a much better one than he did in 2004 but I still felt Kobe and Wade were better.


T-Mac played really inspired basketball that year, while Kobe had a down year and seemed to be limited somewhat by injuries. Wade was too raw. He broke out in the playoffs, but he was often out of control(hence his 4+ turnovers) and didn't have a jump shot yet.

Quote:
2006 - Iverson shouldn't be in the top 10 and Pierce should be in over him instead. Iverson had a great season but I just thought Pierce's was better.

I don't have a strong preference either way that year. They're in a group that's debatable. Both had similar years to me. Great individual years on bad teams that missed the playoffs.

Quote:
2009 - Gasol and Melo above Yao? Seriously? Yao only missed the last 4 games of the playoffs so I hope you didn't pick those two over him because of durability because Yao was actually more durable than Melo. Many argued that Melo wasn't even the MVP on his team that season and that Billups was. I believe Billups was top 5 in MVP voting that season while Melo missed like 10-15+ games in that regular season. I don't even know or if it is even possible to argue that they were more talented and better talented than Yao that season either because they weren't and they surely did not make a bigger or better impact. I would actually put Yao 5-6 for this season but I don't have much of a problem putting Dirk, Roy, and Deron over him but I do with Melo and Gasol.

I initially had the order as Yao, Melo and Gasol. I switched it around last minute due to Yao's injury in the playoffs and Gasol's superior mobility since teams could take Yao out of games by fronting him and any pass that was a little low to Yao would usually be a turnover.

But that's the one that I'm changing back. Well, Yao is back at 9, Pau moves to 10, and Melo drops to 11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
Good list, but here's a couple of my bigger disagreements
01 Kobe should not be that high. I can't see him carrying AI's 01 team as far as Iverson did, and I can't see him being as productive as KG.

Kobe was just a better player than Iverson to me. He was a better shooter and a much better finisher due to his size, he was a much better defender than Iverson, he could also impact the game more on the boards due to his size, and he did a better job as a playmaker in the playoffs.

I could see Kobe leading Iverson's team, I think Kobe would like the situation to have that freedom offensively, but I don't see a volume scorer like Iverson succeeding in the second option role on a championship team like Kobe did.

KG and Kobe were close, but I went with Kobe due to his unbelievable playoff run when I felt he was easily the 2nd best player in the playoffs.

Quote:
06 I'd switch Nash and Dirk. Dirk won something like 5 more games then Nash with a more talented team.

You mean Nash over Dirk in '06? I can't agree with that, Dirk was unbelievable in the playoffs until the finals.

Quote:
In 09, I think Yao deserve to be considerably higher. That was probably his second best season, and I dont think there is another player you could switch him with that could create that mix of offense and defensive impact. Borderline top 5 to me. Actually, I just don't agree with the 09 list in general. I wouldn't have Pau nearly as high, he was below Duncan to me quite clearly. Nash at 16 is quite brutal. He had a mediocre start when he had a coach who seemed like he was trying run the team into the ground, but other then that he was basically the same as 08 Steve.


Pau was better than Duncan by '09, imo. Duncan completely wore down in the second half of the season, and Pau was probably a bit better offensively by that point due to being younger, having better stamina and more mobility, and Duncan's defense really slipped that year so that's not a determining factor.

Nash was really disappointing for the entire first half of the season, I understand that was due to Porter, but I can't put him above players who he just didn't play better than for most of the season.

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Old 06-30-2012, 06:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

This list is laughably stupid. I won't comment further because this is all a subjective exercise anyways.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by noosaman
This list is laughably stupid. I won't comment further because I don't know what I'm talking about anyways.
fixed.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
fixed.

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Old 06-30-2012, 06:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by noosaman
This list is laughably stupid. I won't comment further because this is all a subjective exercise anyways.

If you are not even going to bother to comment, why even bother posting. Anyone can pop in and claim someone's list is stupid, but I would at least expect them to give me reasons why.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

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Originally Posted by noosaman
This list is laughably stupid. I won't comment further because this is all a subjective exercise anyways.


You haven't said shit why don't you state your argument dumbass.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Kobe was just a better player than Iverson to me. He was a better shooter and a much better finisher due to his size, he was a much better defender than Iverson, he could also impact the game more on the boards due to his size, and he did a better job as a playmaker in the playoffs.
I agree with the defense, but otherwise I don't. Even AI's rebounding was great for his size, though Kobe's was better.
I don't think Kobe did a better job as a playermaker at all. There were a number of games where Iverson's shot wasn't falling and he started to make an effort to get his team mates involved, and when he was hot he usually just kept going. They both had real PG skills while playing SG, and had a similar mentality as basically absolute scorers. They looked for their shots above all else, but did a great job as facilitators in stretches.
Also I think Iverson had an intangible value that very few other players did. He just created havoc for opposing defenses with how much he moved around the court, and by the 4th quarter, whoever was defending him was just wore down while he was 100% even if he played the whole game. I don't think it's easy to overstate how much defensive attention AI garnered that season.

Quote:
I could see Kobe leading Iverson's team, I think Kobe would like the situation to have that freedom offensively, but I don't see a volume scorer like Iverson succeeding in the second option role on a championship team like Kobe did.
We've had this conversation before, but I think AI's volume scoring was pretty much caused by his situation. Once Webber Join the Sixers, his efficiency soared, and then he went to Denver to play with Melo, and he scored less and more efficiently again.


Quote:
You mean Nash over Dirk in '06? I can't agree with that, Dirk was unbelievable in the playoffs until the finals.
Nash had a great run too. I don't think there really is any difference between what they did in the playoffs and the regular season. Nash just seemed better to me in both. Dirk had a couple memorable big games, but I don't think it's fair to place a large amount more value on one game then another.


Quote:
Pau was better than Duncan by '09, imo. Duncan completely wore down in the second half of the season, and Pau was probably a bit better offensively by that point due to being younger, having better stamina and more mobility,
Duncan might have wore down, but it didn't affect him in the playoffs where he had a fantastic first round.

Quote:
and Duncan's defense really slipped that year so that's not a determining factor.
I think it's a huge factor. Wether it slipped or not, he was still one of the better defensive bigs in the league, and Pau has always ranged from average to poor on that end.

Quote:
Nash was really disappointing for the entire first half of the season, I understand that was due to Porter, but I can't put him above players who he just didn't play better than for most of the season.
Fair enough I guess, but I still don't see him better then a guy like Parker who was mostly just a scorer, and not a whole lot better then Nash in that category in the first pace.
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Old 06-30-2012, 07:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
I thought I'd let the guy who put substantial time into this do the critiquing so without looking at your list, I put my own top twenty together based on my yearly top ten most significant players and a quick overview of the season (plus my recollection of that year) to come up with a top 20 to compare to yours. Here it is...

My top twenty for 2000
1. Shaq
2. Garnett
3. Duncan
4. Mourning
5. Miller
6. Webber
7. Payton
8. Malone
9. Iverson
10. Kidd
11. Kobe
12. Hill
13. Robinson
14. Carter
15. Rasheed
16. Marbury
17. Allen
18. E. Jones
19. Sprewell
20. J. Rose

Actually pretty darn close.

The major differences, and my questions about them are as follows...tell me what you learned and why I am wrong.

Well, I think the fact that we do have different criterias as you mention will lead to a lot of differences. Mine is better players, while yours as you explained in your other thread is more significant.

I think yours looks accurate for most significant players except I think Duncan should remain above KG despite the injury because KG only played 4 playoff games. I also think Kobe should be higher because he won a title. Based on Miller ranking so high for a finals appearance, I think Kobe should end up with a similar ranking for a championship.

Quote:
1. The obvious one. Reggie Miller. I have him as a top five based on importance, but I understand you have different criteria so I can see Webber, Malone and Payton over him. But how are guys like Iverson and Kobe and Allen ahead of him? Let alone Jones, Pippen, Penny, Finley, Marbury etc.


Iverson was one of the most explosive perimeter scorers at the time, and a much better playmaker than Miller. He could just do more on the court, he shot a lot of jumpers, not nearly as well as Miller, but he could get hot and carry a team, but also create off the dribble for himself and others, which Miller could not do.

Kobe was a real all around player, which made him an easy choice for me when ranking the best players. He was arguably the best perimeter defender that year, a much more capable playmaker than Reggie, and perhaps the most skilled and talented perimeter scorer at that time, even though he was still learning how to incorporate all of his individual ability into the team concept. He was also one of the best rebounding guards.

Reggie did one thing, run off screens and shoot or draw fouls. I prefer more versatile players even though Reggie had a great playoff and could carry a team when he was hot. But others could get their shots in more ways and also make plays for others.

Allen is an example, he was a pure shooter like Miller, but much more athletic and a much better ball handler, plus he was a better passer.

Quote:
2. Why Duncan over Garnett despite the injury for the playoffs?

I saw enough of Duncan that year to determine that imo, he was clearly the second best player of the league. KG was more debatable with Mourning and Malone, imo. During that stretch, Shaq and Duncan were just a step above everyone else. I always preferred Duncan's post game and shot blocking over Garnett's versatility and perimeter skills. KG took his game to a next level with more aggressiveness in '03 and '04, he seemed more dominant then, but I don't think he was at Duncan's level in 2000.

And Duncan's injury in the playoffs may have made more of a difference had KG done anything significant in the playoffs, but he was out in 4 games.

Quote:
3. Eddie Jones a bit overrated? I thought that all-NBA selection was a stretch. Not an efficient scorer or a guy you can count on down the stretch to create his or others shots.


Jones had a habit of choking, particularly in the playoffs as he did this year. But he was among the absolute best perimeter defenders, and a 20 ppg scorer who wasn't as skilled and creative as other scorers, but he could shoot, he was a good athlete and how many 20 ppg perimeter scorers are also elite defenders?

Quote:
4. Grant Hill too high? Now it's true he scored more than he ever had before and his shot had shown solid improvement all-around that season. (He added the slow dribble pull-up three from the top in his arsenal that year) But Hill had his worst season rebounding and passing since his rookie year and he too was injured for the playoffs.


I think Grant Hill is rated correctly, he'd always rank in a fairly similar to spot to where he did this year, but I did like his improved jumper and the fact that he became a better scoring and more assertive. But I think he was just clearly better than anyone behind him, only Payton was close.

Quote:
5. Why guys like TB, Cassell, Pippen, Mutombo over Jalen Rose, who had one of his best years and a strong playoff run to match it?

Rose was initially in my top 25 in the final spot, but I gave it more thought, and I was just never a big fan of his game, or his decision making, too 1 on 1 oriented at times.

Brandon and Cassell were both gifted scorers who did a very good job of running their offense and making plays for others. Brandon had an excellent mid-range shot and he was one of the league's best pick and roll players, and a very smart point guard who wasn't the flashiest, but made the right plays. Cassell was one of the most crafty, smart and reliable point guards, who used his size and posted up well. Didn't shoot many 3s, but did a great job of getting his own shot in the mid-range area.

Pippen was clearly a better player than Rose, imo. He was still the best help defender on the perimeter, as good of a rebounder at his position as anyone, an excellent playmaking forward and still a capable scorer. The numbers are deceptive due to playing on the deepest and most talented team in the league who had over a half dozen scoring options and played at a slow pace.

Mutombo was the league's leading rebounding, second in blocked shots and 2nd in FG%. You can't ask more from your big man. He was the best of his era at blocking shots in the paint and protecting the rim. He was on a bad team, but he did things that are very valuable and help teams win, you just need to be on a team where those things can be put to use(we saw this in the '01 playoffs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
I agree with the defense, but otherwise I don't. Even AI's rebounding was great for his size, though Kobe's was better.
I don't think Kobe did a better job as a playermaker at all. There were a number of games where Iverson's shot wasn't falling and he started to make an effort to get his team mates involved, and when he was hot he usually just kept going. They both had real PG skills while playing SG, and had a similar mentality as basically absolute scorers. They looked for their shots above all else, but did a great job as facilitators in stretches.


Well, Iverson may have done a better job as a playmaker in the regular season, but Kobe's playmaking was just phenomenal during the playoffs, and while Iverson was a good playmaker, I don't see Iverson having that same success in the triangle.

And Kobe being so much more efficient made it an easier choice for me as well. Iverson's skill set and style are unique, but I think he's a much tougher player to build around or fit in playing different roles.

Quote:
Also I think Iverson had an intangible value that very few other players did. He just created havoc for opposing defenses with how much he moved around the court, and by the 4th quarter, whoever was defending him was just wore down while he was 100% even if he played the whole game. I don't think it's easy to overstate how much defensive attention AI garnered that season.

I agree with the intangible part some what, how hard Iverson played did seem to inspire his team, and he was tough to stay with when Brown had him playing off the ball more. I also think that was a more effective way to incorporate his scoring into the team.

Again, as far as defensive attention, most of the league's elite receive a ton of defensive attention. Iverson did receive as much as any perimeter player, but there were other perimeter scorers playing on teams with not much offensive talent such as Carter on Toronto and McGrady in Orlando.

Quote:
We've had this conversation before, but I think AI's volume scoring was pretty much caused by his situation. Once Webber Join the Sixers, his efficiency soared, and then he went to Denver to play with Melo, and he scored less and more efficiently again.


I've never viewed it as a big deal since most of the league's top scorers get a ton of defensive attention. One of the keys in Denver was him shooting less and also playing at such a fast pace with more easy baskets.

Quote:
Nash had a great run too. I don't think there really is any difference between what they did in the playoffs and the regular season. Nash just seemed better to me in both. Dirk had a couple memorable big games, but I don't think it's fair to place a large amount more value on one game then another.

I thought Dirk clearly had the better postseason run, Nash seemed to be getting tired at times during that run, iirc.

Quote:
Duncan might have wore down, but it didn't affect him in the playoffs where he had a fantastic first round.


Pau was great in every playoff round, he had a remarkably consistent run.

Quote:
I think it's a huge factor. Wether it slipped or not, he was still one of the better defensive bigs in the league, and Pau has always ranged from average to poor on that end.


Pau did a fine job defensively, imo in '09.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 06-30-2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: The top 25 players from 2000-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Well, I think the fact that we do have different criterias as you mention will lead to a lot of differences. Mine is better players, while yours as you explained in your other thread is more significant.

I don't see it being problem though as we've both been able to discern the difference and discuss in the appropriate context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Iverson was one of the most explosive perimeter scorers at the time, and a much better playmaker than Miller. He could just do more on the court, he shot a lot of jumpers, not nearly as well as Miller, but he could get hot and carry a team, but also create off the dribble for himself and others, which Miller could not do.

Kobe was a real all around player, which made him an easy choice for me when ranking the best players. He was arguably the best perimeter defender that year, a much more capable playmaker than Reggie, and perhaps the most skilled and talented perimeter scorer at that time, even though he was still learning how to incorporate all of his individual ability into the team concept. He was also one of the best rebounding guards.

Reggie did one thing, run off screens and shoot or draw fouls. I prefer more versatile players even though Reggie had a great playoff and could carry a team when he was hot. But others could get their shots in more ways and also make plays for others.

Allen is an example, he was a pure shooter like Miller, but much more athletic and a much better ball handler, plus he was a better passer.

I don't disagree with any of this (except Kobe getting as much of a boost for being Shaq's sidekick as Miller for leading the small market Pacers), but a few things to consider and a final question on the topic:

1) Miller was the best (by far) at what he did. Come off screens and score.

2) Playing that style actually creates offense for the players setting the screen (and either slipping or returning to the ball) and spot up shooters whose man was drawn to help as Miller got free.

3) Not Allen, Kobe or Iverson were as established as stars the way Reggie was at the time.

If those players were all better than Miller, which you have made a fair case that they are, why, in your opinion, was Miller able to perform better head-to-head than those players during the playoffs?
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