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Old 01-02-2007, 05:39 PM   #31
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MJ would never be in Paul Pierces shoes for a career. Stop making this bogus scenerios in attempts to prove your silly point.
you never substantiate anything you say. boldly state things and wait for others to prove them. stick to digging up youtube vids. basketball commentary isn't for you if you can't do something as simple as assertion - evidence - commentary.

why would MJ never be in PPs shoes for a career? would he be the first great swingman to be stuck in a mediocre situation? I know a certain Dominique Wilkins who would say NO. would he be the last? hell no.

he was IN PAULS SITUATION for YEARS before they lucked into Pippen and got Phil. remember the playoff futility against the Bad Boys? you act like Jordan was some sort of basketball god who never lost a game or got eliminated. he needed help like everyone else. you were watching, you should know.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:41 PM   #32
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The goal of basketball, like all games, is to win. How can you question everyone's natural tendancy to consider people who have won better than those who have not? Players without rings have failed to achieve the thing that all NBA players are out there fighting for.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:42 PM   #33
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Wiz, I'm not saying Bird could carry the Charlotte Bobcats to an NBA title. But saying he couldn't have won a single one without two HoF'ers by his side just doesn't hold water, especially when you consider one was won with a rookie McHale.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:42 PM   #34
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No, it isn't. Just because you say it's a fact simply doesn't make it so. The fact is Bird won a ring with Parish beside him and a rookie McHale putting up 10/4. The Celtics wouldn't have been a dynasty, but to act like Bird would be ringless is plain stupid.

If you think MVP-caliber Bird couldn't carry a decent team to an NBA championship, well...I really don't know what to say to you
carry a mediocre or worse team to a title in the 80s era of Showtime and Bad Boys? no, I don't. and YOU saying it doesn't make it true either bub. neither one of us, actually, has the power to create alternate universes at will. sorry.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:43 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by braden.
I never put Bird in Pierce's place, but in today's Eastern Conference with prime Bird? 50 wins at least.

I'd say 45 wins... I'm looking at the team as a whole.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by BigTicket
I'm with GeeWiz on this one, noone has ever won a title on their own, it just isn't an individual thing. Judging a player solely on how many titles he has is silly.
I'm ok with using it to seperate to players who might otherwise appear equal, but saying a lesser player is greater because he has more titles, as often is the case, is just retarded.

The situation you find yourself in means a hell of a lot, and there usually isn't anything a player can do about that.

No one is talkin about an inferior player with 3 rings being better than a superior players with no rings.

We're talkin about why MJ is better than Clyde Drexler. Meaning great players who are then seperated by what? Titles. Thats how its done when you are comparing the NBA elite. There has to be something that seperates them. It can be either by ability (player could have been dominating in his era) and/or it could be the titles won.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:45 PM   #37
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The goal of basketball, like all games, is to win. How can you question everyone's natural tendancy to consider people who have won better than those who have not? Players without rings have failed to achieve the thing that all NBA players are out there fighting for.
I understand that it's peoples tendencies. but I am saying that it shouldn't be. we should think on a higher level for stuff like this.

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Wiz, I'm not saying Bird could carry the Charlotte Bobcats to an NBA title. But saying he couldn't have won a single one without two HoF'ers by his side just doesn't hold water.
youre stuck at two extremes. I'm in the middle. join me.

I'm not saying that Bird specifically needs 2 HOFers to get a ring. I am saying that he needs a good supporting cast around him. not necesarily the great one that he had, but a better than mediocre one.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:45 PM   #38
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personally i like to measure players on their abilities and not what they've won. I think alot of players wont ever be fortunate/lucky enuff to win a championship thru no fault of their own. It takes a perfect situation and being in the right spot at the right time to get one with so many factors involved that i cant blame a great player for not being that lucky person on the right team.

when people talk of how good a player was i dont think rings have that much relevance when we're talking about having game. Each team can only have so many superstars with salary caps so rings are obviously only limited to 1-2 superstars every year. Supporting casts in each and every championship have always been a pivotal factor as well. Measuring players by rings just has such a huge margin of error and is such a flawed way of looking at great players in the history of the NBA, that its unfair to measure a players game by that exclusively. If it were 1 player, that 1 superstar singlehandedly responsble for winning championships thats 1 thing, but usually its a very team oriented effort.

anyways, its disappointing to me how some players say the same thing, but you cant blame them because winniing is usually all that matters in the end. Its just that i think from a player fan point of view, there are ALOT of players with more game and ability than those that have been involved in championships but someone will make the argument that the other player was/is better because he won a ring and the other guy never did. Thats just flawed imo and misrepresents the reality of some players games compared to others in alot of discussions here.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:45 PM   #39
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This issue has come up a number of times. I once asked it about Ewing and Hakeem.

Ewing is often considered an overrated unclutch.....great...but not elite center. While Hakeem is top 5-10(for any position) to some. Yet the only difference in their career rings wise could be Hakeems finger. Hakeem got the tip of his right pinky on John starks attempted title winning jumper in game 6 of the finals. If Hakeem reacts a tenth of a second later Ewing could have a title. If Starks gets the ball up a tenth of a second earlier Ewing could have a title. both totally outside his control. But he could have a title and be ranked way ahead of where he is now.

Always made me think. That jumper wouldnt have made Ewing better in retrospect. He doesnt just get a better jumper or play better D when it falls. Hakeem got no better because Starks hesitated for a split second.

It totally changes legacy and ranking but does nothing to ability. Once you accept that when most people say "Best" they dont mean best player but best career(even when they say they mean best player) it becomes a lot easier to overlook.

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Old 01-02-2007, 05:47 PM   #40
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I'd say 45 wins... I'm looking at the team as a whole.
In today's EC, this is a 35-40 win team with Pierce and Szczerbiak healthy. They won 45 games with Walker/Pierce/Davis/junk two years ago. I can't see this team winning less than 50 with Bird at the helm.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:48 PM   #41
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I'm not saying that Bird specifically needs 2 HOFers to get a ring.
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what you said.

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but he retires ringless if he doesn't have 2 of the best frontcourt players ever helping him out plus DJ.

If you're saying Bird needed a good team around him, I'd agree. But you're saying he retires ringless without McHale and Parish, which, as I said, doesn't hold any water.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:49 PM   #42
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We're talkin about why MJ is better than Clyde Drexler. Meaning great players who are then seperated by what? Titles.
no thats the thing. thats what youve got all wrong.

the titles are the bare bones basic LCD representation of what makes MJ better than Drex. the titles reflect how MJ was better at taking over games, better in the clutch, was more explosive, and was just better overall.

my point is that if you switch MJ and Drex situations, Drex probably ends up with more rings than MJ because he'd have a superior team around him. but that doesn't make MJ any less of a winner, does it?

if the cards of fate were dealt differently MJ could easily not have six rings. hell it took 2 game 6 last minute gamwinners, or MJ could possibly have 4. put him on a mediocre team and he could have 0. but MJ would still be MJ to those who are TRULY paying attention. there are great winners in this league who have never won anything through luck of the draw. you're going to tell me they're not winners? didn't have "it?" if they were winners, great roleplayers would be magnetically drawn to their franchises? come on. you're an AI fan. you know as well as anyone thats not how it works.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:51 PM   #43
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If you're saying Bird needed a good team around him, I'd agree. But you're saying he retires ringless without McHale and Parish, which, as I said, doesn't hold any water.
can you stop being antagonistic? seriously. I just told you what I meant and you won't believe me? I said it right? I'm pretty sure I know what I meant.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:52 PM   #44
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Drexler actually had the better team for a while. If Jordan and Drexler switched teams in 87 and stayed that way till 93....I think Jordan has at least the same 3 titles. Drexler did have a good enough team to make the finals twice in Portland.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:53 PM   #45
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Drexler and the Blazers were as good as the Bulls if not BETTER. So its not like Drexler hasnt been on teams that were great.
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