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Old 01-02-2007, 04:45 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by statman32
i never said you hated nash...and you kinda are a borderline iverson homer...lol if you would have said he should have won it last year than you would be a for sure one

anyways mvps arent won by leading the league in scoring or putting up the best stats....its won by being a efficent player and being valuable to a GREAT team

I am not a AI homer at all. I pretty much speak what I think is the truth. AI having lots of turnovers here in Denver so far I talked about that being bad just as much as I did about his passing skills when he was getting those 10 assists.

Like I said it's one thing if I just said the AI think about 2 years ago I said the same about Lebron/Kobe who I thought should have both won it last year before Nash.

But me and you I guess have diff views on MVP also. I think why should you not be praised, and rewarded for being good if you just don't have talent around you. Like get what I mean? Like is it your fault the gm is not putting the right guys around you when your doing everything every night out there to win yet there is simply not enough talent around you to do so.

That all I think.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:47 AM   #182
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The thing is, as an AI fan, you really sholdn't be bitter, AI already has one MVP, which is something Kobe may never do, Tmac probably for sure will never do, there are PLENTY, PLENTY of "big time talents" who has never won an MVP, GP, Webber, Pippen. AI actually has one despite never being on any "powerhouse teams" the way Webber, GP, Pip or even Dirk was. (the 01 team was a hard working overachieving bunch, let's not get carried away and say they were a powerhouse)

And now again, please don't take this as a diss to Iverson, I'm the first to defend Iverson on any Iverson vs Kobe debate because Iverson has never had anyone remotely 1/3 as good as prime Shaq. BUT last two years, with Iggy, Webber, Dalembert, Korver, it really wasn't that bad, and I feel they did underachieve.

Iverson having only one MVP is hardly an injustice. His prime just happened to clash with the primes of Duncan and Shaq, two of the greatest winners of ALL TIME, Shaq is top 6 player all time and Duncan is top 15.

Jason Kidd fans should complain about Kidd not having an MVP, Dirk fans have a case last year, but Iverson fans? Let it go you guys got one already.

The fact is besidse 01 I don't even freaking remember any "memorable playoff run" from Iverson. Nash had two monster runs the last two years. Let it go, Steve Nash is better than alot people give hi mcredit for.

Last edited by EricForman : 01-02-2007 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:49 AM   #183
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Im confused. Eric Foreman is arguing with himself??? saying Iverson is MVP worthy and then arguing it. what the hell is going on?
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:52 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
Im confused. Eric Foreman is arguing with himself??? saying Iverson is MVP worthy and then arguing it. what the hell is going on?


Um, wasn't I saying Nash deserved at least one of his MVPs and I was telling everyone to drop the "Nash is the worse MVP EVER HE ONLY WINS CAUSE HE'S WHITE" gimmick?

I'm a huge fan of Iverson but where excatly did I say Iverson is MVP worthy this year? I was arguing with the Iverson fan telling him he's insane to think Iverson rhas a shot this year.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:52 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by EricForman

Iverson having only one MVP is hardly an injustice. His prime just happened to clash with the primes of Duncan and Shaq, two of the greatest winners of ALL TIME, Shaq is top 6 player all time and Duncan is top 15.

Jason Kidd fans should complain about Kidd not having an MVP, Dirk fans have a case last year, but Iverson fans? Let it go you guys got one already.

that high? highest I've ever seen shaq rated. How come Duncan is top 15? I mean, not saying that Duncan is better but Shaq has won rings with 2 top 10 players in the L...arguably top 5 at some point...Duncan has done it as one and only, no clear sidekick...know what I mean?

I guess what Im wondering is how come there is that much of a difference between shaq and duncan?
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:53 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
Um, wasn't I saying Nash deserved at least one of his MVPs and I was telling everyone to drop the "Nash is the worse MVP EVER HE ONLY WINS CAUSE HE'S WHITE" gimmick?

I'm a huge fan of Iverson but where excatly did I say Iverson is MVP worthy this year? I was arguing with the Iverson fan telling him he's insane to think Iverson rhas a shot this year.

look on the previous page...he quoted you and every point you make about iverson being not worthy...right after it in bold, you contradict it?
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:01 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
that high? highest I've ever seen shaq rated. How come Duncan is top 15? I mean, not saying that Duncan is better but Shaq has won rings with 2 top 10 players in the L...arguably top 5 at some point...Duncan has done it as one and only, no clear sidekick...know what I mean?

I guess what Im wondering is how come there is that much of a difference between shaq and duncan?


Shaq's regular season win % + the number of times his team has made it to the Conference Finals ( I believe 9 and counting) + the total amount of rings 4 (including the rare/tough task of threepeat),+ the ridiculous statlines in his prime years = Shaq is every bit as good as the "top tier" guys like Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kareem. Hell, I think 2000 Shaq, for that one year, is the single most dominant/effective/efficient player EVER. Better than any single year of Bird/Magic/Wilt/Kareem, etc.

Also, another interesting thing that won't show up in stats, besides his rookie year and this year, I believe EVERY YEAR of Shaq's career, his team has been considered a "top four team/title contender" during the season. Be it preseason rankings or midseason rankings, his team is always a "top four". Whether or not they actually win it all is another story, but Shaq's teams has generally always been considered a "legit contender". We're talking about a 10 year stretch here.

Shaq really should be no lower than 7 or 8 all time, only haters and people in denial would still rank say..... Jerry West or Hakeem or like Bob Cousy over Shaq. Only players that can clear cut say they've had a better career than Shaq are Jordan, Bill Russell and maybe Magic. Not even Bird/Kareem can make that claim.

The reason Shaq ranks higher than Duncan significantly is because of Shaq's utter dominance. Although Duncan was great, he didn't always dominate. He had some off games in 03 vs the Nets, in 05, he had some bad games and Manu carried the load a bit. When Shaq won his three, HE WAS THE MAN AND HE DOMINATED. Dropping 40s and 20s like nothing.

Shaq is the sickest physical speciment in basketball history, if he wasn't so lazy and had a better work ethic, he'd be the GOAT.

Last edited by EricForman : 01-02-2007 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:02 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by hotsizzle
look on the previous page...he quoted you and every point you make about iverson being not worthy...right after it in bold, you contradict it?

The bolded lines aren't my words... they're that Iverson fan-- Serge's replies to me... he doesn't know how to quote correctly or something. Come on you think i'm that crazy, argue with myself?
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:05 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
The bolded lines aren't my words... they're that Iverson fan-- Serge's replies to me... he doesn't know how to quote correctly or something. Come on you think i'm that crazy, argue with myself?
lol i understood what he did but come on...there are some dumb people on here...some of them would probably argue with themselves lol
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:18 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by EricForman
Shaq's regular season win %, throw in the number of times his team has made it to at least the Conference Finals ( I believe 9 and counting), plus the total amount of rings 4 (including the rare/tough task of threepeat), PLUS the ridiculous statlines in his prime years = Shaq is every bit as good as the "top tier" guys like Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Kareem. Hell, I think 2000 Shaq, for that one year, is the single most dominant/effective/efficient player EVER. Better than any single year of Bird/Magic/Wilt/Kareem, etc.

Also, another interesting thing that won't show up in stats, besides his rookie year and this year, I believe EVERY YEAR of Shaq's career, his team has been considered a "top four team/title contender" during the season. Be it preseason rankings or midseason rankings, his team is always a "top four". Whether or not they actually win it all is another story, but Shaq's teams has generally always been considered a "legit contender". We're talking about a 10 year stretch here.

Shaq really should be no lower than 7 or 8 all time, only haters and people in denial would still rank say..... Jerry West or Hakeem or like Bob Cousy over Shaq. Only players that can clear cut say they've had a better career than Shaq are Jordan, Bill Russell and maybe Magic. Not even Bird/Kareem can make that claim.

The reason Shaq ranks higher than Duncan significantly is because of Shaq's utter dominance. Although Duncan was great, he didn't always dominate. He had some off games in 03 vs the Nets, in 05, he had some bad games and Manu carried the load a bit. When Shaq won his three, HE WAS THE MAN AND HE DOMINATED. Dropping 40s and 20s like nothing.

Shaq is the sickest physical speciment in basketball history, if he wasn't so lazy and had a better work ethic, he'd be the GOAT.

good points. Didnt really look at it that way especially from the "how his team ranked so high every year of his career" standpoint. Duncan can also make that claim though but I get the point of the level of dominance. If you look at careers though...the difference isnt huge in terms of career stats combined with the impact they've had on their resepctive teams and the league in general . Duncan is also an outstanding two way player, something shaq cant say

Career #s

Shaq: 26.3 pts 11.8 rebs 2.8 assts 2.5 blks 57% FG

- 4 rings
- 3 Finals MVPs
- 7 finals appearences
- 1 Reg Season MVPs (although I think he should have at least 3)
- Been on NBA all team EVERY YEAR of his career and 3 times on NBA all defense (all 2nd team)

Duncan: 22.0 pts 12.0 rebs 3.1 assts 2.5 blks 51% FG

- 3 rings
- 3 Finals MVPs
- 3 Finals appearences
- 2 Reg Season MVPs
- Been on NBA all team and NBA all defense EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his career

I guess the finals appearences do it for shaq getting the edge. But numbers wise, although shaq had a statistical dominant prime, shaq's career numbers dont blow ducan's out of the water. As I said, both can claim to have huge team impact and are always in contention starting from their rookie yrs. Defensively, Duncan is better.

Personally, I would seperate them by 2 spots or so with the edge going to Shaq...and Im not old enough to know much about the past players so Im not going to get into where they should specifically rank until I gain some more insight on the past.

Last edited by hotsizzle : 01-02-2007 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:22 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by EricForman
The bolded lines aren't my words... they're that Iverson fan-- Serge's replies to me... he doesn't know how to quote correctly or something. Come on you think i'm that crazy, argue with myself?

haha my bad, its just that I was reading it and then Im like "wait, is he trying to say he is or he is not worthy"? confused me a lil bit
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:23 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
The thing is, as an AI fan, you really sholdn't be bitter, AI already has one MVP, which is something Kobe may never do, Tmac probably for sure will never do, there are PLENTY, PLENTY of "big time talents" who has never won an MVP, GP, Webber, Pippen. AI actually has one despite never being on any "powerhouse teams" the way Webber, GP, Pip or even Dirk was. (the 01 team was a hard working overachieving bunch, let's not get carried away and say they were a powerhouse)

LOL I would never say that about 01 being a power house I am not stupid haha it was a weak east, and everyone filled there roles nice. Mickie 6th man, Deke Mutombo D player of the year, coach of the year ect........They all did what they had to that is all would never say they were a power house I am not stupid haha.

And now again, please don't take this as a diss to Iverson, I'm the first to defend Iverson on any Iverson vs Kobe debate because Iverson has never had anyone remotely 1/3 as good as prime Shaq. BUT last two years, with Iggy, Webber, Dalembert, Korver, it really wasn't that bad, and I feel they did underachieve.

Did they underachieve sure maybe a little. But again when you combine Webber, Korver, and AI's D that is not a good combo espacially for the time Korver actually started with those 2. Webber is not prime Webber one leg, and old. Korver plays worse D then AI, and Webber combined. lol Iggy once he deveopes he will be a nice 2nd guy for a good team, but he is not agressive enough, and is not consistent enough. He also is to scared a lot of time to shoot. Sammy is not as good as we thought he be he fumbles the ball a lot when people pass to him.

Iverson having only one MVP is hardly an injustice. His prime just happened to clash with the primes of Duncan and Shaq, two of the greatest winners of ALL TIME, Shaq is top 6 player all time and Duncan is top 15.

Yea even at 30-31 you can still say he is in his best so also you got Lebron, Kobe, ect...........right now I agree

Jason Kidd fans should complain about Kidd not having an MVP, Dirk fans have a case last year, but Iverson fans? Let it go you guys got one already.

I am happy he has one, but should we not have the right to be up set he does not have more cause of the lack of talent around him?

The fact is besidse 01 I don't even freaking remember any "memorable playoff run" from Iverson. Nash had two monster runs the last two years. Let it go, Steve Nash is better than alot people give hi mcredit for.

He had another year were he had nice playoffs even though team did not get to the finals, but then again east got better AI's team did not cause of the stupid GM not putting enough talent around AI.

And I respect what Nash has done the last 2 years, and this year what he is doing even more. Just cause I think 2 years ago AI should have won it, and last year Lebron or Kobe does not mean I don't respect Nash for what he is doing or has done before.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:26 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by EricForman
Um, wasn't I saying Nash deserved at least one of his MVPs and I was telling everyone to drop the "Nash is the worse MVP EVER HE ONLY WINS CAUSE HE'S WHITE" gimmick?

I'm a huge fan of Iverson but where excatly did I say Iverson is MVP worthy this year? I was arguing with the Iverson fan telling him he's insane to think Iverson rhas a shot this year.

Umm question I think anyone who is having nice seasons still have chance at MVP about 15-20 players still can win a MVP once season is over.

RIGHT NOW NASH IS THE MVP!!!

But it's not even half way thru the season things can change.

Will it be easy for AI to win MVP this season heck no never siad it be. But possible? Yes

When Melo, and JR return I don't see AI missing 10 assists to much with the up tempo they will play at he will still get the shots, and points so why not?
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:49 AM   #194
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He is a sick player but not the best in the L
But....He is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:54 AM   #195
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Serge, don't put your own words inside the quote box.
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