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Old 05-25-2011, 07:06 PM   #286
SCY
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

My take is that the NBA is inherently an unfair league. I don't think you could name a single championship team that didn't do several of these things: get lucky in the draft lottery, benefit from a lopsided trade, nabbed a free agent in the off-season no one else had a chance at, or picked up a player on waivers late in the season that no one else had a chance at. Perhaps this Miami Heat team is the most particularly unfairly constructed team in history, but what they did was within the rules and they do have to pay the price of having crappy role players along with their 3 stars.

As far as LeBron goes, he had a unique opportunity to play with his friends in a nice location while contending for championships. I don't see how anyone can blame him for taking it. I don't think he'll look back with regret because people on a message board or even his peers think it negatively affects his legacy. I agree it would be better for the league if LeBron had more of a competitive fire and this team never formed, but it's not what he wanted to do. Players get blamed for caring too much about money or their legacy (Kobe) as well, so it can be kind of a lose-lose as far as people's opinions go.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:26 PM   #287
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Successful people move out west and down south. Only midwest losers stay in their hometown's. LeBron did the right thing. I'd rather live and work in Miami, too.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:28 PM   #288
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I don't believe that the Bulls would have been the path of least resistance... No. For one, I'm totally unsure how James and Rose would co-exist. They would have a lot of the same problems offensively that the Heat have had in terms of getting both Wade and James to play at a high level at the same time instead of just taking turns isolating...

Except, Rose isn't as good as Wade.
And because Rose isn't as good as Wade, Lebron would've taken over as the undisputed Main man on the offensive end. They wouldn't be taking turns isolating as much as the Heat have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Chicago and Miami (with Bosh/Wade) were already going to be title contenders for years to come. Neither team really needed James to compete for a title.
In Chicago they'd be legit title contenders for sure because the Bulls are already deep but in Miami while it would increased their title chances it's doubtful they would be legit contenders without Lebron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
So, to answer your question... I think going to the place that had the two all-stars already was the path of least resistance.
I don't see it. This is the same Miami team Bulls fans were confident they could beat because they had 'far' superior depth and Miami was just a three-man team with a lackluster bench. Add Lebron to that team and it would've been over the top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I believe that James is/was a great enough player not to need to jump on that kind of ridiculously stacked team.
Except this team really is not ridiculously stacked; It's top heavy if not a bit disjointed. They're a bunch of teams in nba history far more stacked and complete than this Heat team and the Heat still have a number of glaring weaknesses throughout their lineup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
In terms of pure legacy, nothing will ever be as impactful as winning a title in Cleveland would have been.
That would've been highly unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by step_back

How were the Bulls a better option? Sure were not as weak at the 1-5 spot but we had just employed a rookie head coach and our best player was a 2nd year PG. People had us at very best a 6 seed before the season tipped off.
Derrick Rose was a rising star and was thought to be a perfect compliment to Lebron, plus with the Bulls depth it would've put them over the top. The argument I heard before and early into the season against the Heat was either Wade and Lebrons games would clash and it couldn't work, or that the Heat have no point Guard, No Center, a horrendous bench, they'll get pounded inside as they have no interior defense, Spoelstra's a crappy coach, We have no legit offense as all we can run are Iso's, we only have a 3 man team and 3 players can't beat 5, we lack depth, Bosh is soft and will wilt under defensive pressure, etc,etc,etc.

Last edited by KOLBCTEW : 05-25-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:35 PM   #289
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Was Tyler Hansbrough's legacy (title to end his career) less impactful because he was surrounded by the likes of Lawson and Ellington amongst others?

I know it's an entirely different system, but if that's all that separates something Hansbrough did in college and what Lebron might do in Miami, the system, then I think the arguments against the Heat are a little soft. Sure, they did something that isn't very common to do in the NBA, doesn't mean what they did was in any way unjust or unfair. If you do view it as such, then I'd like to think you have the same opinion of the Kentucky's, UNC's, Duke's, Kansas' of the college world and the players that play for those teams.

I even refuse to say what Lebron and Bosh did was the easy way out. It was simply another way. Why can a legacy only be fully respected by doing thing one way and one way only?
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:36 PM   #290
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCY
My take is that the NBA is inherently an unfair league. I don't think you could name a single championship team that didn't do several of these things: get lucky in the draft lottery, benefit from a lopsided trade, nabbed a free agent in the off-season no one else had a chance at, or picked up a player on waivers late in the season that no one else had a chance at. Perhaps this Miami Heat team is the most particularly unfairly constructed team in history, but what they did was within the rules and they do have to pay the price of having crappy role players along with their 3 stars.

A couple of notes...

I don't agree that they have crappy role players. Maybe they have crappy regular season role players, but a guy like Joel Anthony has been huge in the playoffs, which is really all that matters. When you have three all-stars in the starting lineup and arguably the two best players in the entire league, guys like Mike Bibby, Mike Miller, Mario Chalmers (underrated player), James Jones and Udonis Haslem are huge.

Hell, team's rotations are normally cut down to around seven or eight guys, anyway.

This team's defensive prowess isn't just about the length of Wade/James/Bosh... It is also about Chalmers, Haslem and Anthony.

As to the rest of your post, great franchises make great moves... Whether it be drafting the right guys, making a great trade, etc. Those kinds of moves are really what separate the great franchises from the crappy ones.

There was nothing extraordinary about how the Heat built this team. They cut salary... That was it. These three guys did the rest.

It is hard to fault the Lakers or call into question the validity of titles when they do things like trading for a veteran Kareem or draft Magic or draft Kobe or fleece a willing Memphis for Gasol.

This was not extraordinary management... This was collusion between players to take their destiny into their own hands and make things easy. That is the difference between this team and any that I have ever seen before (at least, when it comes to players in their absolute prime).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCY
As far as LeBron goes, he had a unique opportunity to play with his friends in a nice location while contending for championships. I don't see how anyone can blame him for taking it. I don't think he'll look back with regret because people on a message board or even his peers think it negatively affects his legacy. I agree it would be better for the league if LeBron had more of a competitive fire and this team never formed, but it's not what he wanted to do. Players get blamed for caring too much about money or their legacy (Kobe) as well, so it can be kind of a lose-lose as far as people's opinions go.

Well, I think there is a balance, as you alluded to. Sure, players can be too far the other way... which is to not want anyone who even remotely shares the spotlight and it results in teams or players not living up to their potential.

And, players who do that should and do get criticized for it. This just happens to be a situation on the complete otherside of the spectrum, but there is a middle ground... And that is where the vast, vast majority of great players reside.

Look, it isn't just people who don't like LeBron James or biased fans questioning this... Bird, Magic, MJ, Barkley... Even the GM for the Magic questioned these guys' competitiveness when this thing was announced.

I'm not saying that James or Wade or Bosh need to live up to anyone else's standard of what a great player is, but I'm also completely opposed to the idea that 'a ring is a ring' and it doesn't matter how you get it. These guys were free to make their own decision and they did so...

We, as fans, are free to criticize the move and discuss it in a historical context.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:39 PM   #291
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOLBCTEW
Derrick Rose was a rising star and was thought to be a perfect compliment to Lebron, plus with the Bulls depth it would've put them over the top. The argument I heard before and early into the season against the Heat was either Wade and Lebrons games would clash and it couldn't work, or that the Heat have no point Guard, No Center, a horrendous bench, they'll get pounded inside as they have no interior defense, Spoelstra's a crappy coach, We have no legit offense as all we can run are Iso's, we only have a 3 man team and 3 players can't beat 5, we lack depth, Bosh is soft and will wilt under defensive pressure, etc,etc,etc.

Derrick Rose is considered by most NBA fans a poor mans Wade. They are both on the ball dominant players and need the basketball to create offence for themselves. Sure we have a bit more depth in the front court but were as thin as paper in the backcourt. Keith Bogans is our starting 2 guard for **** sake!

And regarding all the problems you mentioned, yes you guys really did have lots of problems on both ends of the floor. At times the Heat were complete garbage. The team has now clicked, it seems the team is a slow burner and has caught fire at the right time.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:42 PM   #292
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin
Was Tyler Hansbrough's legacy (title to end his career) less impactful because he was surrounded by the likes of Lawson and Ellington amongst others?

I know it's an entirely different system, but if that's all that separates something Hansbrough did in college and what Lebron might do in Miami, the system, then I think the arguments against the Heat are a little soft. Sure, they did something that isn't very common to do in the NBA, doesn't mean what they did was in any way unjust or unfair. If you do view it as such, then I'd like to think you have the same opinion of the Kentucky's, UNC's, Duke's, Kansas' of the college world and the players that play for those teams.

I even refuse to say what Lebron and Bosh did was the easy way out. It was simply another way. Why can a legacy only be fully respected by doing thing one way and one way only?

Sure the strength of Hansbrough's team impact how his title runs are remembered. Had he done what, say, Carmelo Anthony did in college... which was to literally carry a team to a National Championship, his collegiate legacy would be higher up in the pantheon.

He is remembered as a very good college player who was a part of a great team and system... He isn't remembered -- at least by people that I know -- as one of the greatest college players of all-time.

That is the class that I thought LeBron James was aiming for... Top 5 in NBA history. I don't think he can crack it on this team. There will always be questions as to whether or not he could win without the other best player in the league....

Questions that don't exist for a Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:19 PM   #293
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
In terms of pure legacy, nothing will ever be as impactful as winning a title in Cleveland would have been.

The thing is he might have never won a title in Cleveland. People who don't win it all are seen as failures or at least it's a glaring criticism that many use against them. Look at it in any sport. What's the negative that is always brought up when someone mentions Dan Marino? Hate on LeBron because he was smart enough to go to a better situation that gave him a better opportunity at winning? His legacy will be greater if he wins a championship/multiple championships in Miami than not winning any in Cleveland.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:23 PM   #294
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by step_back
Keith Bogans is our starting 2 guard for **** sake! ..
And we have Mike Bibby as our starting point guard... nuff said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by step_back
And regarding all the problems you mentioned, yes you guys really did have lots of problems on both ends of the floor. At times the Heat were complete garbage. The team has now clicked, it seems the team is a slow burner and has caught fire at the right time.
This Team hasn't clicked, they're the same team they've been for a while(outside of Udonis coming back). Granted certain players have stepped up at critical times but the team isn't clicking on all units at all. Until Yesterday Mike Miller has been a train wreck, Joel Anthony had a good series against the Celtics but hasn't been very effective lately and has returned to being an offensive blackhole, Udonis Haslem had a great game 2 and a decent game 3 but was 0-5 yesterday with two of the most ridiculous turnovers late in the fourth I've ever seen, Mario Chalmers is as inconsistent as they come, James Jones has been virtually useless this series and Mike Bibby while not as bad as usual is still pretty bad.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:47 PM   #295
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

You can't just slap a bunch of elite players together and coast to a championship. What about the Yankees? A lot of their teams with crazy payrolls failed.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:03 PM   #296
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
You can't just slap a bunch of elite players together and coast to a championship. What about the Yankees? A lot of their teams with crazy payrolls failed.
the Yankees?...you mean that team with 27 World Series Titles?

yeah, prolly just a coincedence they also have a ton of great players...
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:00 PM   #297
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Certainly, Dr. J was not a Top 3 player in 1982, either.

Moses, Kareem, Gervin, Bird

There were the Top 4 players in the league that season. Julius was somewhere after that, but he didn't have an argument for Top 3 that season. Bird was young (at least, young in that version of the NBA), but he was completely unreal that season... You are talking 23, 11, 6 on 50+% shooting and leading a very young Cs team to the conference finals.


Even if you do think Dr. J at 31 had as much claim to a Top 3 player as Wade did last year, Dr. J was clearly nearing his decline and not in his physical prime... Unlike Wade, James and Bosh coming into this season.

Also, I will re-state that, in that incarnation of the NBA, the league was smaller and the construction of the CBA allowed for teams to be really stacked with several elite players.

It is a different league today and, when you build a team and have to go back to 1982 to find an even remotely comparable situation (which is still way off), it just shows how unique this thing is.

We haven't even touched upon the fact that they also have an elite PF who is just entering his prime, which really takes the Sixers comparison out of the conversation. Bosh has been the most consistently good player in this ECF series.

As I said, they just overwhelm teams with talent. That isn't the kind of team I respect.



Dr.J didn't have a case for Top 3 in 82? Are you kidding me?

In the regular season he averaged 24/7/4 on 55% shooting in only 34 minutes of play. How good is that? Well got him 3rd in MVP voting. You know, Top 3. With All-NBA 1st. But he didn't even have a case?

And then in the playoffs he took his team to the NBA Finals losing to the Lakers. Not to mention outplaying Bird in the ECF to get his team to the Finals over a loaded Boston team.

Success both in the regular season and playoffs. Golden combo.

Now can you make a better case for Wade who finished like 5th for MVP voting and got bounced off in the 1st round.




I'm not saying MVP voting and all of this is a sure determinant for who is better or not, but I said a good case can be made for Erving for Top 3 and was just made. LOL at Kareem (who averaged almost less rebounds/points/assists than Erving at this point and finished like 10th in MVP voting) and Gervin (did he do anything better but score).




So the only difference is, which I admit there are small differences, that Erving declined a year and Wade didn't. LOL is that it? Either way 2 Top 3 players combined forces. And a case I can make for Moses being more selfish, is that the 76ers were already a proven team that went to the Finals, Miami still wasn't. Yet he still did it.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:49 PM   #298
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
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You're gonna start threads regarding NFL betting (if there's a new season) right?

If you do, please PM me so I see the thread.

I really want to get into this.

Also, where can I find some 'NFL betting for dummies 101' online?

To your 1st question. No. As soon as this thread comes to a conclusion (The Heat win), I'm out of here. I quit ISH, I'm at too high of a level in terms of winning for all these losers on ISH. So you won't see me around.

As for betting, be careful, though I am successful at it, I'd say 90% of bettors lose money. So if you are on your own, odds are you will be losing. Nonetheless, if you follow me, you will win money. It's that simple.


For a website teaching you betting, use Google. Come on man this is the 21st century. "Google it". But it's pretty simple. Follow me and you will learn and see.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:14 PM   #299
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by -playmaker-
the Yankees?...you mean that team with 27 World Series Titles?

yeah, prolly just a coincedence they also have a ton of great players...

They've won the WS once in the past 10 years. However, they've led the league in payroll every single year. In '01, their payroll was just a modest 2.5 mil higher than the next highest, but after that?

'02: 18 mil higher
'03: 35.5 mil higher
'04: 57 mil higher
'05: 85 mil higher
'06: 74.5 mil higher
'07: 46.5 mil higher
'08: 71 mil higher
'09: 52 mil higher
'10: 44 mil higher

In 2005, they had at least 2x the payroll of every single team aside from the Red Sox, but they didn't even make it out of the first round of the playoffs.
In 2006, they had nearly 13x the payroll of the Florida Marlins. They didn't even make it out of the first round of the playoffs.
In 2008, they had nearly 10x the payroll of the Florida Marlins. They didn't even make the playoffs. Also, they barely had a better record than the Marlins.

1 championship in 10 years while they were destroying everyone in payroll.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:23 PM   #300
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Default Re: I just bet 7k on the Heat beating the Bulls

Quote:
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So the only difference is, which I admit there are small differences, that Erving declined a year and Wade didn't. LOL is that it?
The fact that Erving was 32 years old, in his 12th season as a professional and clearly declining is not a 'small difference' when compared to Wade. That is basically the whole point. And, yeah... Dr. J's numbers were down pretty much across the board from 1981 to 1982... And they were down, basically across the board, from 1980 to 1981.

Wade, meanwhile, was clearly still in the middle of his prime when this thing was pulled off. That is not a 'small' difference.

Wade was 28 and in his seventh season as a pro when this thing went down. James was 25 and Bosh was 26.

And, MVP voting means absolutely nothing. What did James finish this year? 4th? I guess that means he is the 4th best player, eh?

Dr. J was absolutely not a Top 3 player in 1982. But, believe what you want.



Even still, you haven't accounted for Chris Bosh, that other All-Star and Olympian just entering his prime who joined those two. This is unprecedented... Just admit it.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-25-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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