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Old 01-21-2011, 03:12 AM   #31
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

He is either just in or just out for me, but the 4-8 spots are real tough to order up.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Pierce over McHale and the reason is longevity? McHale retired at 35. Pierce is 33. How does that work?

Actually, nevermind. Pierce over McHale at all?

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Old 01-21-2011, 03:20 AM   #33
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

i dont know much about the celtic history but paul should definitely be recognized
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:27 AM   #34
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
Four Automatics:

Russell
Bird
Hondo
Cousy

after that it's between Pierce, Heinsohn McHale, Parish, Sam Jones, Bill Sharman, Jo Jo White, Dennis Johnson and KG.

I can't put Pierce above McHale or Jones.

I agree with most of your post.

I put Pierce at 5 though, for the following reason: he has been the most face of the franchise for this entire decade.
McHale and Jones were never THE iconic players on their respective teams, due to the greatness of Russell and Bird. Pierce has been a Celtic his entire career and has been the team's best player for the bigger part of it. He has won less championships ofc, but on an individual level (statistically, all star selections, recognizition), I'd say he has had a better career than Mchale and Jones (this is subjective of course).

I've never seen Sam Jones play, but I read about him and I know he was great. But so was Pierce and Pierce was the leader of his squads, unlike Jones (these squads were less dominant than Jones's teams though)
Pierce will mostly be remembered for being part of the big three I think. The original Celtic who stayed put and got a team built around him every player would wish for.

He's top 5 in my book.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

McHale is easily better then Pierce; greatest low post scorer in league history should be ranked over a prototypical All-Star who won't leave any sort of legacy behind. The Messiah was known for a niche, his low post scoring and incredible foot work; how many players scored 27 PPG on over 60 FG%? Sure he doesn't have a similar longevity of Pierce, but his peek demolishes anything Pierce has ever done at his peak.

Russell, Bird, Hondo, Cousey and McHale are players that should and will be remembered as better Celtic players (in comparison to Pierce).

All of those players are in the top 50; you honestly think Pierce will one day be elected on that list? Please, most overrated player perhaps I have ever witnessed in my life.

Heck is he even better then Robert Parish?
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toizumi
I agree with most of your post.

I put Pierce at 5 though, for the following reason: he has been the most face of the franchise for this entire decade.
McHale and Jones were never THE iconic players on their respective teams, due to the greatness of Russell and Bird. Pierce has been a Celtic his entire career and has been the team's best player for the bigger part of it. He has won less championships ofc, but on an individual level (statistically, all star selections, recognizition), I'd say he has had a better career than Mchale and Jones (this is subjective of course).

I've never seen Sam Jones play, but I read about him and I know he was great. But so was Pierce and Pierce was the leader of his squads, unlike Jones (these squads were less dominant than Jones's teams though)
Pierce will mostly be remembered for being part of the big three I think. The original Celtic who stayed put and got a team built around him every player would wish for.

He's top 5 in my book.

What? So your argument is that Pierce led a Celtic squad for an entire decade fishing practically every season until a silver spoon was inserted into his mouth with the signing of Allen & Garnett? Being the face of the franchise just isn't the same when your achievements are limited and not very flattering.

I could care less if he won the finals MVP; we all know KG was the heart & soul of that team, he was their leader in 2008 and most importantly Ray Allen was robbed of that NBA finals.

Pierce on that 80's Celtic team would be a third wheel at best, it just so happens that those two players played with Bird & Russell. One player who is clearly better then him, if you know anything about basketball in the 80's (concentrating mostly on McHale, am not as knowledgeable on Sam Jones).

Pierce is easily one of the most loyal players in Celtic history, going through all those tough years; but skill wise, it's a preposterous sentiment to suggest him being better then guys like Russell, Bird, McHale, Hondo or Cousy. Those are icons in Celtic history; Pierce didn't bring much of anything to the franchise besides loyalty and a bunch of All-Star appearances. Let me rephrase; he never achieved anything note worthy (besides that one conference final appearance) as the best player on his team; so please don't bring up that weak-ass "But McHale was a 2nd fiddle..." argument...

Last edited by crosso√er : 01-21-2011 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:44 AM   #37
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Idk how Hondo and Cousy would have fared in a contemporary NBA setting.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

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Originally Posted by Go Getter
Idk how Hondo and Cousy would have fared in a contemporary NBA setting.


Hondo was still putting up good all around numbers in the 1970's.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlh1981
Upon reading the responses, I guess it's not so crazy after all to assume that Pierce would be a top 5 Celtic.

Why, because Pierce could become the #1 scorer in Celtic history?

Bill Russell was never known for his scoring; Bird & Hondo were much more complete players then Pierce and Cousy is just an icon in Celtic history, a PG who distributed the ball rather then score. A perennial All-Star like Pierce shouldn't even be allowed to be in the same tier as him, let alone be considered better then him.

Besides Bird & Hondo; those three players (including McHale) simply either didn't have as long of career or they simply played different positions and had different strengths (other then being asked to be a primary scorer). And although Pierce could beat out Bird & Hondo on the All-Time scoring list; those guys were a heck of a lot more complete as basketball players.

Pierce is good at everything, I'm not dissing him. He is a really good player, an All-Star, who has had a great career. He is extremely clutch, a great scorer and an underrated defender. But he doesn't do anything at a legendary level; I can't see him being placed on that "Top 50 Players of All-Time" list, there are nearly 25-30 players in this past decade and in the 90's who were at least as good as Pierce was. Guys like Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson and Joe Dumars. None of those players should be considered better then any of those Celtic legends; and Pierce isn't exactly better then any of those careers either.

Boston have won the most titles; and those five individuals have won 90%+ for them; I find it an insult for anyone to consider Pierce above any one of those guys (McHale, Bird, Russell, Hondo or Cousy).

Last edited by crosso√er : 01-21-2011 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:58 AM   #40
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtics all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duranthebest
I've seen this topic discussed on different boards multiple times... The consensus top 6 is(in no order), Bird, Russel, Hondo, Cousey, Pierce and McHale. I'd put Pierce over McHale and Cousey based on longevity and career statistics.

I've seen them all in person, except Russell and Cousy era players.

My top 5 would be:
Bill Russell - for the championships and the overall excellence.

Larry Bird - I have never seen a player with so many all around skills. Bird was amazing at every aspect of the game, even on defense. He would frustrate the life out of other players. If he was playing today, he would foul out in a half. Very physical guy.

John Havlicek - amazing, amazing player. No doubt he's my favorite player ever. One of the best perimeter defenders I have seen in person, and a heady scorer. Was the bridging player for the Celtics.

Paul Pierce - He hasn't started to decline yet. He has one of the longest peak I have seen. His physical abilities have slowly diminished, but he has become an amazing shot creator off pump fakes and jam steps. He has become an excellent set shooter, and is still a top 3 finisher in the NBA. His defense also improves every year. (Wow, I feel like a homer)

Dave Cowens - McHale's body of work is too small and Bob Cousy didn't have the influence that Cowens had. He was a legit MVP.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosso√er
McHale is easily better then Pierce; greatest low post scorer in league history should be ranked over a prototypical All-Star who won't leave any sort of legacy behind. The Messiah was known for a niche, his low post scoring and incredible foot work; how many players scored 27 PPG on over 60 FG%? Sure he doesn't have a similar longevity of Pierce, but his peek demolishes anything Pierce has ever done at his peak.

Russell, Bird, Hondo, Cousey and McHale are players that should and will be remembered as better Celtic players (in comparison to Pierce).

All of those players are in the top 50; you honestly think Pierce will one day be elected on that list? Please, most overrated player perhaps I have ever witnessed in my life.

Heck is he even better then Robert Parish?
I agree with most of your most. I would also include a forgotten for many Dvae Cowens. But its hard for me to take this post serious when you say Pierce is the most overrated player yoou have witnessed. YEt in the same post you say Kevin Mchale is the "Greatest low post scorer" in history. Was Kareem shooting jumpers. I don't recall Hakeem's midrange game as the reason many call him a TOp 5 C. There was another great Moses besides the one in the bible.You must be too young to have seen Elvin,Wilt and if thats the case you had to have seen Tim Duncan. Mchale is really a Jack Sikma that played on a Great team. That being said I still take him over PP.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:04 AM   #42
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtics all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
I've seen them all in person, except Russell and Cousy era players.

My top 5 would be:
Bill Russell - for the championships and the overall excellence.

Larry Bird - I have never seen a player with so many all around skills. Bird was amazing at every aspect of the game, even on defense. He would frustrate the life out of other players. If he was playing today, he would foul out in a half. Very physical guy.

John Havlicek - amazing, amazing player. No doubt he's my favorite player ever. One of the best perimeter defenders I have seen in person, and a heady scorer. Was the bridging player for the Celtics.

Paul Pierce - He hasn't started to decline yet. He has one of the longest peak I have seen. His physical abilities have slowly diminished, but he has become an amazing shot creator off pump fakes and jam steps. He has become an excellent set shooter, and is still a top 3 finisher in the NBA. His defense also improves every year. (Wow, I feel like a homer)

Dave Cowens - McHale's body of work is too small and Bob Cousy didn't have the influence that Cowens had. He was a legit MVP.


Cousy didn't have the influence ? Paul Pierce has never been considered a TOp 5 player in the league. For the most part he has never really been a Top 10. Cousy after Milkan was considered as one of the best at the very least a top 3.Cousy true or not is considered the first great PG.IT can go on .
I would also rank Jo JO White even with PP.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:04 AM   #43
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebron23
Hondo was still putting up good all around numbers in the 1970's.


Forgot about that. Good point.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:06 AM   #44
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niquesports
I agree with most of your most. I would also include a forgotten for many Dvae Cowens. But its hard for me to take this post serious when you say Pierce is the most overrated player yoou have witnessed. YEt in the same post you say Kevin Mchale is the "Greatest low post scorer" in history. Was Kareem shooting jumpers. I don't recall Hakeem's midrange game as the reason many call him a TOp 5 C. There was another great Moses besides the one in the bible.You must be too young to have seen Elvin,Wilt and if thats the case you had to have seen Tim Duncan. Mchale is really a Jack Sikma that played on a Great team. That being said I still take him over PP.

Parish, S.Jones, Cowens and so forth are irrelevant because those five players are sufficient enough to make my rebuttal. I honestly don't understand why people are infatuated with Pierce; he was off the map completely this past decade until 2008. An All-Star caliber player who didn't sniff the playoffs for half a decade it seems.

Now he has two future HOF'ers and people in this very thread; claiming he could end up being a top five Celtic, dethroning one of those legends? Those same legends that BUILT Celtic history, really?!
I'm not too young; people in this thread clearly are.

McHale had arguably the most effective low-post game in league history, at his peak. Go do some studying kid; you can't take me serious because you named a bunch of legends who were also great low post scorers as some sort of validity in discrediting my point?

McHale had some of the greatest low-post moves I have ever seen and he was a hell of a lot more efficient then Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:16 AM   #45
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Default Re: Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosso√er
Parish, S.Jones, Cowens and so forth are irrelevant because those five players are sufficient enough to make my rebuttal. I honestly don't understand why people are infatuated with Pierce; he was off the map completely this past decade until 2008. An All-Star caliber player who didn't sniff the playoffs for half a decade it seems.

Now he has two future HOF'ers and people in this very thread; claiming he could end up being a top five Celtic, dethroning one of those legends? Those same legends that BUILT Celtic history, really?!
I'm not too young; people in this thread clearly are.

McHale had arguably the most effective low-post game in league history, at his peak. Go do some studying kid; you can't take me serious because you named a bunch of legends who were also great low post scorers as some sort of validity in discrediting my point?

McHale had some of the greatest low-post moves I have ever seen and he was a hell of a lot more efficient then Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint.


McHale=GOAT post moves.

Through him I learned every move needs a counter-move to confuse a defender or make him pause for a second.
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