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Old 11-28-2006, 02:18 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer
Where oh where did I call Rodman or Grant 25/15 bigmen? Putting words into my mouth to ease your humiliation?

No, as I said, I asked why Kobe can't win without a dominant, 25/15/5/3 big man and you came in and changed the discussion to one about mere "help." Help, eliteballer, is a 13/9 big man or a third 11+ ppg scorer. A 25/15/5/3 big man cannot be considered "help" -- it's considered a Hall of Fame, top 15 all-time player. You changed the subject, not me. I never said that Kobe didn't deserve help, nor did I suggest that Jordan didn't have help. I simply asked why he can't win without what some feel will be a 25/15/5/3 big man. Because KG's 22/11/5 obviously isn't enough for Kobe, since many Laker fans wouldn't make the trade, as seen in this thread...


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3 All-Stars




How about this: if Kobe has a 10-12 pt/4 ast PG and a 13/9 or 14/10 big man with good defense on his team, we'll talk. Because that's what Jordan had from his other two "all stars" during the first three-peat.

Last edited by Loki : 11-28-2006 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:20 AM   #122
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Keep grasping for straws. It only embarrasses you further
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:25 AM   #123
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So LOCO, basically what you're telling us is if Kobe was taken off the Lakers, they would win 55 games, have multiple All-Stars and make the 2nd round of the playoffs getting to within a game of the Conference Finals? Is THAT what you're telling us?
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:25 AM   #124
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Keep grasping for straws. It only embarrasses you further

If you insist.
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:06 AM   #125
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eliteballer, you are severely overrating grant just to downplay jordan, the allstar game doesnt mean jack, is a popularity contest, grant in the bulls championship teams is comparable to what karl malone was in the 04 lakers, not to what shaq was in the 00-02 lakers, to suggest that or even think it is beyond absurd.
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:32 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by eliteballer
So LOCO, basically what you're telling us is if Kobe was taken off the Lakers, they would win 55 games, have multiple All-Stars and make the 2nd round of the playoffs getting to within a game of the Conference Finals? Is THAT what you're telling us?

No, I never said any of that. Though, yes, Odom would be an all-star; moreover -- and to bring this back to what we were actually discussing -- Kwame or Bynum would be capable of putting up 13/9 just like Grant if given Grant's 35 mpg instead of the 20-25 mpg they currently get. Never said anything about Smush or anyone else.

You acted like Grant was some kind of force. He wasn't. He was a 13/9 big man with great defense. Deal with it.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:08 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki

You acted like Grant was some kind of force. He wasn't. He was a 13/9 big man with great defense. Deal with it.

He might not have been some kind of force, but he was rock solid(similar to the way the Laker's Luke Walton shows up night in/night out except at a more valuable position). Something that's a rarity nowadays, hell even back then. Add his defensive prowess and you have a very valuable player.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:36 PM   #128
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He might not have been some kind of force, but he was rock solid(similar to the way the Laker's Luke Walton shows up night in/night out except at a more valuable position). Something that's a rarity nowadays, hell even back then. Add his defensive prowess and you have a very valuable player.

I know he was valuable. But I was talking about a 25/15/5/3 player (which a poster felt that Bynum would develop into eventually), and asked why Kobe can't win without a dominant big man. Even KG's apparently pedestrian 22/11/5 is not enough for Kobe fans, because they wouldn't trade Bynum for him, and even if they did, they were still looking for studs at the PG/SF positions (apparently having two top 25 all-time players in their absolute primes on the same team along with serviceable role players isn't enough for LA to win with). A 25/15/5/3/55% big man is better than Kobe himself -- can Kobe win without a player better than himself? Mind you, Garnett has also had a better individual career than Kobe, so...


Eliteballer came in and changed the subject entirely by talking about the "help" Jordan had (mind you I never said that Kobe has to prove that he can win without "help," but I think we can agree that a 25/15/5/3 player is a bit more than "help"), and mentioned Grant as an "all-star caliber big man." I conceded that he was barely all-star caliber, and eliteballer acted like he was some sort of beast, which he clearly was not. He then tried to equate Scottie Pippen and Lebron James; I said that they're different types of players entirely, and that I'd be willing to give Kobe, say, Ron Artest (or a 19/8/6 SF with tremendous defense, which is what Pippen was), but not a 31/7/7 player who has in 14 games this season already had half the amount of 35+ point games that Pippen had in the 246 games from '91-'93 (6 vs. 3). Apparently Kobe needs a 25/15/5/3 big man and a GOAT candidate (Lebron) in order to win. Oh, wait, they'd still be weak at PG.

Last edited by Loki : 11-28-2006 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:49 PM   #129
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Garnett has NOT had a better career than kobe. As for the 55 wins make the second round comment, Im guessing its because thats what the bulls did without jordan. Jordan was a beast. No question about that but his team was loaded. Pippen was a stud. Grant was solid, rodman was the best defensive pf in nba history(though he didnt get there till the second three peat).
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:01 PM   #130
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Garnett has NOT had a better career than kobe

Not a better career overall (due to Kobe's rings), but a better career individually, yes he has. Ask yourself something: pretend Kobe never won 3 rings. Would his career still be more impressive than Garnett's? Nope. KG has been more productive and has more individual accolades as well.


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As for the 55 wins make the second round comment, Im guessing its because thats what the bulls did without jordan.

I know why he said it; my point was that I never suggested that the Lakers would do that if you removed Kobe. And they wouldn't do so for a variety of reasons, not just because the Lakers suck outside of Kobe.

Quote:
Jordan was a beast. No question about that but his team was loaded. Pippen was a stud. Grant was solid, rodman was the best defensive pf in nba history(though he didnt get there till the second three peat).

No one denied all that. I made very limited claims, all of which can be backed up. What eliteballer chooses to read into my comments is not my problem, however.
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