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Old 06-22-2009, 10:30 PM   #31
nnn123
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by GP_20
Yes, and those were the games were Payton was the primary defender on Jordan.

Karl's gameplan initially was to double Jordan everytime he got the ball, while letting Payton primarily guard Pippen. Payton did his job holding Pippen to 41% shooting, however Jordan was still getting his way. Later in Game 3 Karl finally decided to stick the Glove on Jordan. After that Jordan shot just 39%. Sonic's made a run, but it was too late.


I always wondered about Karl's gameplan during that series. I mean you have the defensive player of the year, a perfect candidate to guard Jordan, and instead ur gonna put Hawkins on him and allow Jordan to get double teamed and dish it off to wide open teammates? Isn't that somewhat the point of having a good defensive player, so you don't have to double team as much? Seemed sort of self-destructive to me...
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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The Glue. It's not a good comparison though due to the fact that MJ has to score, while maintaining energy. Mr. Glue on the other hand has another mission.
I'm sure Payton also had heavy scoring duties as well, especially for a PG (nothing compared to MJ though). He also had playmaking duties, which Michael Jordan didn't need to worry nearly as much about. There's a lot more more energy expenditure when you are bringing the ball up versus just running up. That's part of the reason why there aren't that many great defensive PGs today. It takes a lot of stamina.

Jordan probably still spent more energy on offense, but Payton was no slouch on offense either.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by GP_20
Payton could also guard PGs from 5'8 to SFs like Pippen (6'7). So he was extremely versatile as well. He had great size for a PG, and still was very fast. Michael Jordan had better shot blocking ability because of his leaping, I wouldn't say he could disrupt passing lanes more though. Also to me Payton had better overall defensive awareness and was the better 1on1 defender. Payton was quicker and solely disrupted more offenses than Jordan.

Payton also played more defense than Jordan did. As Jordan had his sidekick Pippen to play defense on the top perimeter player at times. Leaving Jordan with more energy on offense and less on defense.


Payton was quicker.. LOL.. You must have not watched the young MJ.. Anyone who watches this guy in his heyday would not write that... The guy was putting up 50 points with 5 steals and 3 blocks in some games.. Payton does not measure up.. Steals, blocks, do not tell that story... If you want to argue Payton vs Mj on the ball defense, I could see a discussion about that.. But not overall defense...
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:33 PM   #34
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by nnn123
I always wondered about Karl's gameplan during that series. I mean you have the defensive player of the year, a perfect candidate to guard Jordan, and instead ur gonna put Hawkins on him and allow Jordan to get double teamed and dish it off to wide open teammates? Isn't that somewhat the point of having a good defensive player, so you don't have to double team as much? Seemed sort of self-destructive to me...

Well there was also Pippen to worry about. I guess Karl wanted to make sure at least one of Jordan or Pippen were taken out of the game. Thats why he put Payton on Pippen primarily. And at least Payton was able to hold down Pippen at 41% shooting. But yeah, he needed a bit more than his trapping defense alone to hold down Jordan.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Payton shot 48% in the finals.

There were games they were guarding each other head to head. Harper was initially the primary defender on Payton, but he went down with injury forcing Phil to put Jordan on Payton. Game 4 was a good example where most of the night they guarded each other. Needless to say, Payton burned him (21/11), while Jordan struggled (6/19 shooting). I won't blame Jordan though, he wasn't at his best defensively while 1996 was arguably Payton's defensive peak.


He shot 44 percent... One other thing... Didn't Mj kill payton a year later.. THE GAME in which Karl said something about MJ.. I remember MJ with 45 pts and about 5 minutes left in the game.. Mj could have easily got that up to 50 plus...
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Payton was quicker.. LOL.. You must have not watched the young MJ.. Anyone who watches this guy in his heyday would not write that... The guy was putting up 50 points with 5 steals and 3 blocks in some games.. Payton does not measure up.. Steals, blocks, do not tell that story... If you want to argue Payton vs Mj on the ball defense, I could see a discussion about that.. But not overall defense...


Quickness on offense and defense are too different things. On defensive reactions are very important to being quick on defense. So I don't know why you are telling me how many points he scored.

Payton was smaller than Jordan, which allowed him to be quicker as well. Why do you think Jordan didn't 5'10 PGs so often? Why do you think he isn't known for his defense on PGs as much as he is on SG/SF? Because PGs are the quickest players on the court. Payton had enough quickness (being he was a PG) to stay with them. Jordan did too, but not as much.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:38 PM   #37
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by NBASTATMAN
He shot 44 percent... One other thing... Didn't Mj kill payton a year later.. THE GAME in which Karl said something about MJ.. I remember MJ with 45 pts and about 5 minutes left in the game.. Mj could have easily got that up to 50 plus...
Yeah I don't quite think that Payton was primarily guarding Jordan that game. Don't remember a regular season game. Ron Harper was the main reason Payton shot a low %. When Jordan was on Payton, Payton had his best games.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

DO PEOPLE EVEN KNOW THAT THE NICKNAME " THE GLOVE" WAS a nickname given to Mj by CHUCK DALY... Payton than called himself that after he won the DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR ... Mj than renamed him THE MITTEN... LOL
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:39 PM   #39
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by NBASTATMAN
DO PEOPLE EVEN KNOW THAT THE NICKNAME " THE GLOVE" WAS a nickname given to Mj by CHUCK DALY... Payton than called himself that after he won the DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR ... Mj than renamed him THE MITTEN... LOL
While it's true Jordan was initially called the "Glove", it obviously did not become very popular. Also, Payton was given that nickname in 1993, not 1996, after his defense on KJ. It stayed, as we saw him receive 9 consecutive All-D 1st awards.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

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Originally Posted by GP_20


Quickness on offense and defense are too different things. On defensive reactions are very important to being quick on defense. So I don't know why you are telling me how many points he scored.

Payton was smaller than Jordan, which allowed him to be quicker as well. Why do you think Jordan didn't 5'10 PGs so often? Why do you think he isn't known for his defense on PGs as much as he is on SG/SF? Because PGs are the quickest players on the court. Payton had enough quickness (being he was a PG) to stay with them. Jordan did too, but not as much.


MJ shut down Kevin johnson in the finals... He is one of the quickest guards you will ever see... There is a video of Mj playing defense on Isiahh thomas and Thomas could not get by MJ.. The guy had great footwork and quickness. Most remember the second comeback MJ.. Still a great player but slower and not as athletic as the first MJ...
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:41 PM   #41
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP_20
While it's true Jordan was initially called the "Glove", it obviously did not become very popular. Also, Payton was given that nickname in 1993, not 1996, after his defense on KJ. It stayed, as we saw him receive 9 consecutive All-D 1st awards.


Payton gave himself that nickname.. Mj already had a nickname that fit.. AIR
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP_20
While it's true Jordan was initially called the "Glove", it obviously did not become very popular. Also, Payton was given that nickname in 1993, not 1996, after his defense on KJ. It stayed, as we saw him receive 9 consecutive All-D 1st awards.


True he got it in 1993 but his cousin gave him that nickname.. Chuck Daly called MJ the glove.. I think Chuck's comments hold more weight.. Though I have big time respect for Payton's defense.. I watched a old payton guard kobe as good as anyone could guard him.. So much respect to PAYTON..
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:52 PM   #43
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

Also many forget that Jordan played with Pippen, Oakley, Rodman, etc.
Many great defensive players. Who did Payton play with? Nate McMillan? That's probably the best defender he has ever played with.

Many forget how much of a difference it makes when you are playing with great defensive players around you. It makes your job so much easier, knowing there is someone else that has your back. But more importantly, it makes you look better. Duncan/Bowen, Reed/Dave/Frazier, Russell/KC/Havlicek, Dumars/Rodman, Jordan/Pippen, McHale/DJ, etc. As you go on, you will realize a lot of great defensive players had great defensive teammates.

For example, right when KG comes into Boston, suddenly Paul Pierce looks like a good defender. Ray Allen even looks solid. The whole team played better defense. Being around a great defender makes you look better.



Jordan has played with great defenders all his career. It's difficult to play great defense without another star defender on your team. Payton has been able to do that. In his 1996 DPOY year, the Sonics were rated as the 2nd highest team on defense. Behind just the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls. Payton was the only All-D caliber defender on that team.

Last edited by GP_20 : 06-22-2009 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP_20
Also many forget that Jordan played with Pippen, Oakley, Rodman, etc.
Many great defensive players. Who did Payton play with? Nate McMillan? That's probably the best defender he has ever played with.

Many forget how much of a difference it makes when you are playing with great defensive players around you. It makes your job so much easier, knowing there is someone else that has your back. But more importantly, it makes you look better. Duncan/Bowen, Reed/Dave/Frazier, Russell/KC/Havlicek, Dumars/Rodman, Jordan/Pippen, McHale/DJ, etc. As you go on, you will realize a lot of great defensive players had great defensive teammates.

For example, right when KG comes into Boston, suddenly Paul Pierce looks like a good defender. Ray Allen even looks solid. The whole team played better defense. Being around a great defender makes you look better.



Jordan has played with great defenders all his career. It's difficult to play great defense without another star defender on your team. Payton has been able to do that. In his 1996 DPOY year, the Sonics were rated as the 2nd highest team on defense. Behind just the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman Bulls. Payton was the only All-D caliber defender on that team.

Right on!
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:55 PM   #45
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Default Re: Better Defender, Michael "Air" Jordan OR Gary "The Glove" Payton?

If you want an "all over the court" defensive presence, MJ is pretty hard to beat. He not only could pressure the ball, but he could force TO's and block shots with his help defense. He could just make plays happen on both ends. If you want to check a guy and need one man to stop the ball, the Glove would probably be my choice.

So:

overall court defense= MJ
M2M ball pressure=Glove
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