Sorry, but KG is the third best this decade, Kobe fourth

[KG5MVP]

the great Kobe Bryant chokes once again in the finals, 5/10 ft

[D-Rose]

the great Kobe Bryant chokes once again in the finals, 5/10 ft

lmao, you act like the finals are over

[drza44]

I hate to bump a thread, especially one with such a controversial first post, but I just read this thread and there was some good content in here. But there were several posts that I wanted to rebut, and when I looked at them the majority were made by D-Rose. So, hopefully D-Rose is still around to read this.

The team that Garnett was on that went to the ECF had Sam Cassell (All-NBA 2nd team), Sprewell with 16 PPG (Let's equate him to Odom), and Wally Sczerbiak coming off an All-Star year.

Cassell was never even an All Star before playing next to Garnett, let alone All NBA, despite being a 34 year old vet at the time. This was the only year in his 15-year NBA career he was an All Star. Odom is better in just about every way than 33-year old Sprewell who was on his last legs before retirement. And Wally (fluke All star anyway) only played 28 games that season due to injury, and he came off the bench in the games he did play.

Let's say Shaq = 2008 Celtics. The Celtics can still win 3 titles with this core.

If you polled every NBA coach, GM, analyst, announcer, and ball boy who have ever lived and told them they could either have 7 years of Shaq in his absolute prime or a few years of Pierce/Allen in their 30s, ALL of them would take Shaq. Quickly. Easily. There would not be a single dissenting vote. Therefore, let's not say Shaq = 2008 Celtics, since no reasonable person alive would make that swap.

Sprewell = Odom

early Billups = early Caron Butler

Production from Olowakandi = Production from Bynum

Troy Hudson in 2003 was 15 PPG 6 APG. Wally was an All-star.

Again, Sprewell in his mid-30s just pre-retirement was demonstrably worse than Odom.

Early Billups does not equal early Caron Butler. Before playing with KG, Billups was considered a journeyman bust. He had never averaged even 4 assists nor shot better than 39% from the field, and had become a back-up. Before going to the Lakers, Butler had already been a first team All Rookie player and then played a solid role as a sophomore on a team that made the 2nd round in the playoffs despite playing through injury. Yes, both Billups and Butler got much better as they got older, but at the point that they joined KG/Kobe it was clear that Butler was further along than Billups was.

Did you just compare Michael Olowokandi favorably to anyone? Really?

And in 2003 Wally wasn't an All Star. He only started 42 games due to injury that year. And Hudson was a career journeyman that, again, never flourished until he played next to Garnett (and even that "flourish" was as a very limited player)...are we starting to notice the pattern of perimeter players having career seasons next to Garnett?

From 99-00 to 03-04 the Wolves won 50, 47, 50, 51, 58 games. not scrub teams.

You are forgetting a very important factor...those teams were winning that many games BECAUSE of Garnett. In fact, that's kind of the point...replacing KG with even a reasonable 20/10 guy of the time like Shareef Abdur-Rahim likely results in none of those teams even sniffing the playoffs.

The only all-stars that Kobe has played with in their prime are Shaq and Gasol. KG has played with Cassell, Wally, Pierce, Ray Ray.

The talent difference isn't as big as people make it out to be. The Celtics team right now can go on to equal that of the LA dynasty Kobe was on, the talent level is similar.

This is the worst part of your argument. Cassell and Wally were 1-time All Stars that only got that while playing next to KG. And just like Shaq vs Pierce/Allen, there isn't a single reasonable person that would have chosen the supporting cast of the 03-04 Wolves over the supporting casts of the 08 and 09 Lakers. Even so, let's look at this as a whole:

KG got 1 season playing next to a healthy Cassell (in his mid-30s).

KG has had 1.5 healthy seasons (while in his 30s) playing next to Pierce and Allen (also in their 30s).

Kobe played 7 seasons with Shaq (in Shaq's absolute prime) and has played another 2 seasons with Gasol (in Gasol's absolute prime).

So in 14 seasons, KG has had 2.5 seasons with even remotely similar (though inferior) casts than what Kobe has enjoyed for 9 of his 13 seasons. There is just no way possible to suggest that they have had similar teammates...it's not a reasonable assertion. And this isn't even getting into coaching and front office, where Kobe's are just as laughingly better than Garnett's.

If you want to argue that Kobe was better than KG or vice versa, ok, I'm glad to have that debate. But asserting and then repeatably defending the idea that their support level was in any way in the same galaxy is ridiculous.

[Samurai Swoosh]

That is true, but you got to see that the East was weak that year.

Really? Cause Iverson that year led the Sixers past the year priors Eastern Conference Champion, the Pacers. Who on experience alone should've gave the Sixers a better series than they happend to do that year. Iverson also led the Sixers past a quality Raptors team in the 2nd round with a VC who could not be stopped. And finally, the last test against what is basically the Denver Nuggets of today, the George Karl Bucks who featured a prime Same Cassell and Glenn Robinson, and an up and coming Ray Allen. That was a pretty good squad, dude.

[23ajay]

once kobe wins this championship without shaq kobe will definitly be better then garnett which will be done next week

[D-Rose]

Really? Cause Iverson that year led the Sixers past the year priors Eastern Conference Champion, the Pacers. Who on experience alone should've gave the Sixers a better series than they happend to do that year. Iverson also led the Sixers past a quality Raptors team in the 2nd round with a VC who could not be stopped. And finally, the last test against what is basically the Denver Nuggets of today, the George Karl Bucks who featured a prime Same Cassell and Glenn Robinson, and an up and coming Ray Allen. That was a pretty good squad, dude.

The Pacers got worse that year...they were 41-41. 8th seed for a damn reason.

Raptors were a 47 win team with no threat other than VC.

Milwaukee was good but a crap defensive team, Philly was obviously great offensively.

[KG5MVP]

I hate to bump a thread, especially one with such a controversial first post, but I just read this thread and there was some good content in here. But there were several posts that I wanted to rebut, and when I looked at them the majority were made by D-Rose. So, hopefully D-Rose is still around to read this.



Cassell was never even an All Star before playing next to Garnett, let alone All NBA, despite being a 34 year old vet at the time. This was the only year in his 15-year NBA career he was an All Star. Odom is better in just about every way than 33-year old Sprewell who was on his last legs before retirement. And Wally (fluke All star anyway) only played 28 games that season due to injury, and he came off the bench in the games he did play.



If you polled every NBA coach, GM, analyst, announcer, and ball boy who have ever lived and told them they could either have 7 years of Shaq in his absolute prime or a few years of Pierce/Allen in their 30s, ALL of them would take Shaq. Quickly. Easily. There would not be a single dissenting vote. Therefore, let's not say Shaq = 2008 Celtics, since no reasonable person alive would make that swap.



Again, Sprewell in his mid-30s just pre-retirement was demonstrably worse than Odom.

Early Billups does not equal early Caron Butler. Before playing with KG, Billups was considered a journeyman bust. He had never averaged even 4 assists nor shot better than 39% from the field, and had become a back-up. Before going to the Lakers, Butler had already been a first team All Rookie player and then played a solid role as a sophomore on a team that made the 2nd round in the playoffs despite playing through injury. Yes, both Billups and Butler got much better as they got older, but at the point that they joined KG/Kobe it was clear that Butler was further along than Billups was.

Did you just compare Michael Olowokandi favorably to anyone? Really?

And in 2003 Wally wasn't an All Star. He only started 42 games due to injury that year. And Hudson was a career journeyman that, again, never flourished until he played next to Garnett (and even that "flourish" was as a very limited player)...are we starting to notice the pattern of perimeter players having career seasons next to Garnett?



You are forgetting a very important factor...those teams were winning that many games BECAUSE of Garnett. In fact, that's kind of the point...replacing KG with even a reasonable 20/10 guy of the time like Shareef Abdur-Rahim likely results in none of those teams even sniffing the playoffs.



This is the worst part of your argument. Cassell and Wally were 1-time All Stars that only got that while playing next to KG. And just like Shaq vs Pierce/Allen, there isn't a single reasonable person that would have chosen the supporting cast of the 03-04 Wolves over the supporting casts of the 08 and 09 Lakers. Even so, let's look at this as a whole:

KG got 1 season playing next to a healthy Cassell (in his mid-30s).

KG has had 1.5 healthy seasons (while in his 30s) playing next to Pierce and Allen (also in their 30s).

Kobe played 7 seasons with Shaq (in Shaq's absolute prime) and has played another 2 seasons with Gasol (in Gasol's absolute prime).

So in 14 seasons, KG has had 2.5 seasons with even remotely similar (though inferior) casts than what Kobe has enjoyed for 9 of his 13 seasons. There is just no way possible to suggest that they have had similar teammates...it's not a reasonable assertion. And this isn't even getting into coaching and front office, where Kobe's are just as laughingly better than Garnett's.

If you want to argue that Kobe was better than KG or vice versa, ok, I'm glad to have that debate. But asserting and then repeatably defending the idea that their support level was in any way in the same galaxy is ridiculous.

well said

[KG5MVP]

good field goal % for kobe tonight, around 30%

[Allstar24]

33/8/5--> those are the only stats that matter.