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Old 11-23-2008, 05:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by qrich
Kaman is superior to Andy in every aspect, even defense :

Cavs would do this deal without blinking, problem is, Clippers will laugh their assess of. Two less then average role players for a top Center who is relatively young at 26 and on a pretty cheap deal that is struggling, yet averaging 15/10 with 1.9 blocks and shooting 58% from the field. :

Yeah the only way I see the Clips trading him is if they are sucking this year around the deadline and are looking to shed some salary. Both players are expiring and you would get a first round pick.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by CySniper
But the cavs need another scorer besides lebron... They will never win lebron scoring all the points.

The Cavs have one of the best offenses, if not the best I don't know, last week we were number one. Mo and Delonte have really stepped up in the scoring department.

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Originally Posted by CySniper
And Kaman is a good center, you need a good center to win a ring

Ever heard of a game named Zydrunas Ilgauskas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
Kaman is superior to Andy in every aspect, even defense :

Cavs would do this deal without blinking, problem is, Clippers will laugh their assess of. Two less then average role players for a top Center who is relatively young at 26 and on a pretty cheap deal that is struggling, yet averaging 15/10 with 1.9 blocks and shooting 58% from the field. :

IMO, Andy is the most underrated player in this league. His activity on D is really an asset. His pick&roll D is superb. And his charge-drawing ability is just off-the-charts. Kaman is nowhere near him defensively. They are not many guys who can frustrate opponents as well as Andy. That's a fact. How is Kaman the better defender ? Post defense ? Yeah I'll give you that. Shotblocking ? Ok but a charge is far more valuable than a block. In every other area, Andy>Kaman

Yes Kaman is a top center, a really good player, but when you trade for someone the question is not "Did we get the best players in this trade ?". The question is "Does this trade make us a better team ?". As good as Kaman is, I don't think this trade would make the Cavs a better team.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaiel
The Cavs have one of the best offenses, if not the best I don't know, last week we were number one. Mo and Delonte have really stepped up in the scoring department.



Ever heard of a game named Zydrunas Ilgauskas ?



IMO, Andy is the most underrated player in this league. His activity on D is really an asset. His pick&roll D is superb. And his charge-drawing ability is just off-the-charts. Kaman is nowhere near him defensively. They are not many guys who can frustrate opponents as well as Andy. That's a fact. How is Kaman the better defender ? Post defense ? Yeah I'll give you that. Shotblocking ? Ok but a charge is far more valuable than a block. In every other area, Andy>Kaman

Yes Kaman is a top center, a really good player, but when you trade for someone the question is not "Did we get the best players in this trade ?". The question is "Does this trade make us a better team ?". As good as Kaman is, I don't think this trade would make the Cavs a better team.

Dude did you mean to place a De in place of that O? If LeBron were not on the Cavs the players would be struggling to pull off uncontested shots. They still don't have a secondary scorer who can create his own shot, but instead have players who feed off LeBron. Right now it seems fine, but in the future it might be exploited as a weakness.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaiel
The Cavs have one of the best offenses, if not the best I don't know, last week we were number one. Mo and Delonte have really stepped up in the scoring department.



Ever heard of a game named Zydrunas Ilgauskas ?



IMO, Andy is the most underrated player in this league. His activity on D is really an asset. His pick&roll D is superb. And his charge-drawing ability is just off-the-charts. Kaman is nowhere near him defensively. They are not many guys who can frustrate opponents as well as Andy. That's a fact. How is Kaman the better defender ? Post defense ? Yeah I'll give you that. Shotblocking ? Ok but a charge is far more valuable than a block. In every other area, Andy>Kaman

Yes Kaman is a top center, a really good player, but when you trade for someone the question is not "Did we get the best players in this trade ?". The question is "Does this trade make us a better team ?". As good as Kaman is, I don't think this trade would make the Cavs a better team.

I have to disagree. That puts our starting line up with two 7 footers, and allows BW an amazing defender to come off the bench. It also allows us to rest Z more because Kaman can easily take over C. Kaman is the low post pressence we need, and he is a good rebounder. Kaman is superior to Andy, it isn't close at all.

The thing Andy does that makes him valuable are the things that don't show up on box scores. He draws fouls, dives for balls, and rilles up defenders. Is it worth passing up on Kaman? No. Besides AV might want to resign for the MLE with us next year ;). Or a S&T.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
IMO, Andy is the most underrated player in this league. His activity on D is really an asset. His pick&roll D is superb. And his charge-drawing ability is just off-the-charts. Kaman is nowhere near him defensively. They are not many guys who can frustrate opponents as well as Andy. That's a fact. How is Kaman the better defender ? Post defense ? Yeah I'll give you that. Shotblocking ? Ok but a charge is far more valuable than a block. In every other area, Andy>Kaman

By that logic, Sasha Vujacic is a better defender then lets say, Shane Battier. Kaman is the better defender, hands down. Challenges every shot, doesn't get burned by his man like I've seen Andy get burned many a time, grabs the rebounds. To say a scrub is better then him is pretty funny. If your whole argument is one draws more charges making him better, then you make me laugh.

Quote:
Yes Kaman is a top center, a really good player, but when you trade for someone the question is not "Did we get the best players in this trade ?". The question is "Does this trade make us a better team ?". As good as Kaman is, I don't think this trade would make the Cavs a better team.

This trade will make the Cavaliers a MUCH better team as they will have a 3 headed monster up front. Kaman is good on both ends of the floor, Ben is only a good defender, if that anymore, and Z can score, that is basically it. Giving up an energy guy and a scrub for a top C won't make them a better team? Please. Thats like me saying if we give up two scrubs[lets say Ricky Davis and Jason Hart for arguments sake] for Maurice Williams, we won't be a better team
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:40 PM   #21
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfather
Dude did you mean to place a De in place of that O? If LeBron were not on the Cavs the players would be struggling to pull off uncontested shots. They still don't have a secondary scorer who can create his own shot, but instead have players who feed off LeBron. Right now it seems fine, but in the future it might be exploited as a weakness.

No he actually m eans offense. Mo has completely changed the team. We were the best offensive team last weak in the entire league.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by Mdog1
No he actually m eans offense. Mo has completely changed the team. We were the best offensive team last weak in the entire league.

Did you even read my post? Get your head out of your ass...
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfather
Dude did you mean to place a De in place of that O? If LeBron were not on the Cavs the players would be struggling to pull off uncontested shots.

How is that a valid argument ? LeBron is on this team, who cares what kind of team they would be without him ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfather
They still don't have a secondary scorer who can create his own shot, but instead have players who feed off LeBron. Right now it seems fine, but in the future it might be exploited as a weakness.

Mo Williams can. Sometimes Delonte. Occasionally you can even dump the ball to Z and let him do his thing in the low block, although that's the one part of his game where he's becoming less and less reliable.

Did you see the game yesterday ? At the half, the Cavs had a 19 point lead with LeBron going 1-6 from the field for 5 points. Not bad for a team where LeBron has to score all the points.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by Godfather
Did you even read my post? Get your head out of your ass...

Wow you have gotten to be an a-hole since CMB if that is still you. Any way yes I did. mo can and does create his own shot, watch a game or two. Without LeBron the team is still nothing, but that argument can be made about any team.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godfather
Did you even read my post? Get your head out of your ass...

So just because you post something it makes it true? Yes the team would be worse without LeBron, but as of now they don't worry about how good they'd be without LeBron because they have him. They don't have a true 2nd option type but Mo, Z, and West have all been excellent for them. Saying that they have one of the best offenses in the league is not that far off.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by Mdog1
Wow you have gotten to be an a-hole since CMB if that is still you. Any way yes I did. mo can and does create his own shot, watch a game or two. Without LeBron the team is still nothing, but that argument can be made about any team.

Please don't give me that I have watched every single one of the Cavs games (live in Ohio). Mo can create a shot for himself, but shoots at a very low % when he does so. When set up by another player, however Mo is very accurate and shoots at a very high %. The same can be said for Delonte, but West is currently proving he has much better shot selection. Boobie couldn't hit the broad side of a barn right now.

I believe the Cavs have one of the best if not the best defense (Mike Brown can coach), but their offensive game needs to make a few strides, and time or another trade will only fix that.
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

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Originally Posted by Godfather
Please don't give me that I have watched every single one of the Cavs games (live in Ohio). Mo can create a shot for himself, but shoots at a very low % when he does so. When set up by another player, however Mo is very accurate and shoots at a very high %. The same can be said for Delonte, but West is currently proving he has much better shot selection. Boobie couldn't hit the broad side of a barn right now.

I believe the Cavs have one of the best if not the best defense (Mike Brown can coach), but their offensive game needs to make a few strides, and time or another trade will only fix that.

Yeah Boobie better start hitting or he will start to play the DJ role on the bench.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdog1
Kaman is superior to Andy, it isn't close at all.

I've never said he wasn't or even that it was close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
By that logic, Sasha Vujacic is a better defender then lets say, Shane Battier.

???

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
Kaman is the better defender, hands down. Challenges every shot, doesn't get burned by his man like I've seen Andy get burned many a time, grabs the rebounds. To say a scrub is better then him is pretty funny. If your whole argument is one draws more charges making him better, then you make me laugh.

1. Andy is far from being a scrub.

2. I've never said he was better than Kaman, I'm not that stupid

3. I do feel that Andy is a better defender. I'm sure if you could poll NBA players on who they hate playing against the most, Kaman or Varejao, it wouldn't be close. Varejao can frustrate you all night. He can drive you crazy. He has amazing foot speed. His pick&roll defense is one of the best in the league. And that's no small feat considering how important P&R is. He can agressively trap the ballhandler, have a textbook show and get back quickly to his man and he's even more than adequate for a big man if he's caught on a switch. When a guy is penetrating, he has to look for Andy cos otherwise it's a charge. And for every charge he draws, there are at least 3 times when the guy saw him coming and had to give up the ball in a hurry.

4. I say it again : A charge is far more valuable than a block. Charge = Automatic turnover + foul. Block = Missed FG, more often than not the ball stays with the offense. And sometimes they end up with a better shot than the shot you've just blocked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qrich
This trade will make the Cavaliers a MUCH better team as they will have a 3 headed monster up front. Kaman is good on both ends of the floor, Ben is only a good defender, if that anymore, and Z can score, that is basically it. Giving up an energy guy and a scrub for a top C won't make them a better team? Please.

Don't forget Z is a very capable defender.

And I'm not saying this trade would make them a worse team, but I don't see how it would make us automatically better. Cos then they would need time to learn how to play together so unless it's 100% sure we do get better, it's really risky. We don't really need the added offense from Kaman. Not at the price of Andy's defense anyway. We're a defensive team first. And Andy has played so well on that end of the floor since he arrived, and he knows Mike Brown's scheme perfectly. And we need his energy.

If I could rate the Cavs this year I'd say :

Offense : 9/10
Defense : 9/10

After that Kaman trade ?

Offense : 9/10
Defense : 8/10

That's why I wouldn't do this trade. Even though Kaman is a lot better than Andy (obviously)
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

Quote:
???

Its your logic. Charges make him better, when clearly, its false.

Quote:
1. Andy is far from being a scrub.

Not really. At best he's a decent role player. If he isn't a scrub, then I guess Ricky Davis can't be considered one either.

Quote:
2. I've never said he was better than Kaman, I'm not that stupid

I'm talking defense, and that is false. Kaman is a better defender.

Quote:
3. I do feel that Andy is a better defender. I'm sure if you could poll NBA players on who they hate playing against the most, Kaman or Varejao, it wouldn't be close. Varejao can frustrate you all night. He can drive you crazy. He has amazing foot speed. His pick&roll defense is one of the best in the league. And that's no small feat considering how important P&R is. He can agressively trap the ballhandler, have a textbook show and get back quickly to his man and he's even more than adequate for a big man if he's caught on a switch. When a guy is penetrating, he has to look for Andy cos otherwise it's a charge. And for every charge he draws, there are at least 3 times when the guy saw him coming and had to give up the ball in a hurry.

Kaman isn't good at defending the P&R? Have you seen him at it? I'm assuming not. Dude is pretty damn agile for a 7 footer and plays good defense, be it help/team or straight up. Andy isn't that well when it comes to straight up.

Quote:
4. I say it again : A charge is far more valuable than a block. Charge = Automatic turnover + foul. Block = Missed FG, more often than not the ball stays with the offense. And sometimes they end up with a better shot than the shot you've just blocked.

A block also changes future shots and intimidates the offense just by a big being there. No one is arguing otherwise, but Kaman's all around defense dominates Andy's. Only aspect which you are hanging on to by a thread, is drawing charges. I guess Sasha > Bowen because Sasha draws bs charges?

Quote:
Don't forget Z is a very capable defender.

That has what to do with anything?

Quote:
And I'm not saying this trade would make them a worse team, but I don't see how it would make us automatically better. Cos then they would need time to learn how to play together so unless it's 100% sure we do get better, it's really risky. We don't really need the added offense from Kaman. Not at the price of Andy's defense anyway. We're a defensive team first. And Andy has played so well on that end of the floor since he arrived, and he knows Mike Brown's scheme perfectly. And we need his energy.

Finding an energy player isn't that difficult and if your passing on a deal for one of the top 5(7 at worst) Centers to hang on to an energy player, then that says all I need to know about your NBA knowledge. If the Lakers could have traded Ronny Turiaf for Chris Kaman, you don't think they would have? Or the Bulls trading Noah for Zane? Or the W's with current Turiaf? Or even the Heat with Haslem?

Quote:
If I could rate the Cavs this year I'd say :

Offense : 9/10
Defense : 9/10

After that Kaman trade ?

Offense : 9/10
Defense : 8/10

This made me laugh, and laugh big time. Adding a much much much superior player, mainly on the offensive end, doesn't make them better? Please, that is pathetic. Kaman with LeBron and Mo Williams will give them a deadly trio. And on defense, they get a guy who can actually play man D without flopping like a *****.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:26 PM   #30
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Default Re: How about Chris Kaman to Cavs?

they should get somebody like theo ratliff instead of caveman
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