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Old 10-30-2015, 08:50 AM   #31
3ball
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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today's defender can't sag off 3-point shooters as much as previous eras could, causing more packed paints for Isiah





In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an unlimited amount, even all the way to the baseline, BUT ONLY IF the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off corner/sideline 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:54 AM   #32
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

^ This place is seriously so much better without you
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:00 AM   #33
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

lol @ cp3 hate. Cp3 > Isiah
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by JohnFreeman
Chris Paul is the most overrated player of all time.

Yup, and it seems like the guy always gets a pass. Isiah all day
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:49 AM   #35
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by kshutts1
Paul is a better overall basketball player than Thomas, but he would not have had the same success with the teammates.

TBH, a lot of these hypothetical questions are quite silly. Good teams are almost always good because of how well they were built around their star. So unless the two stars in question play a near-identical style/game, the answer will inevitably be No.

And, in this particular comparison (as with most, honestly), the two stars are notably different players.
Excellent point and thats why I also think these threads are kinda silly, no offense to the OP...I just figure, whats the point? Nobody knows for sure what would've or could've been. Would Jordan win in the 00's? Would Lebron win in the 80's? I dunno, who cares? It can never be answered so why waste time debating over it?

Now just a player to player comparison? I think Isaiah is a better scorer, I think both are equally good playmakers, both are good defenders although I'd probably give CP3 the edge there, talking just on ball defense really. Leadership? Both great leaders but probably take Isaiah there just based on the team he was leading. Toughness goes to Isaiah, clutch play goes to Isaiah. Ballhandling? You could say equal but I may give Isaiah the edge there too because he wasn't able to carry, and palm the ball all over the place. Not saying CP3 does but he does play in a more generous era as far as traveling calls, palming, and even assists stat tracking. If they tracked Isaiah's assists like they do CP3's, he would've averaged even more assists.

Last edited by Dro : 10-30-2015 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

Would have been a completely different team. So, probably not.




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Old 10-30-2015, 12:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by Mike Armstrong
Regular season CP3 is as good as regular season IT, but IT was much better in the playoffs. It is similar to the difference between Karl Malone and Duncan.
Well put.

Isiah as a competitor was a level higher than CP3. Isiah was very clutch, and could carry the offensive load better. His toughness completed what the Pistons were trying to do. Isiah was the victim of some crazy aggression that CP3 never came close to experiencing. Gasol would have never thought to rub Isiah's head even with his Piston enforcers not around. I could think of other scenarios where CP3 could be better than Isiah, but not on that team. No way.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:00 PM   #38
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

Isiah was one of the THE most cold blooded killers that ever laced them up. I would go to war with a guy like that any day. And guys followed him because he was all about WE and not ME. He played the game the right way and just wanted to win.

At the same time, as many have already said, CP3 is one of the most underrated greats ever.

As for the question, who knows.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
Paul is a better overall basketball player than Thomas, but he would not have had the same success with the teammates.

TBH, a lot of these hypothetical questions are quite silly. Good teams are almost always good because of how well they were built around their star. So unless the two stars in question play a near-identical style/game, the answer will inevitably be No.

And, in this particular comparison (as with most, honestly), the two stars are notably different players.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:04 PM   #40
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by Fallen Angel
This is what the Pistons faced in the 1989 NBA Finals.

Code:
Tota Shoo Per Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK 1 James Worthy 27 4 4 170 39 81 2 3 22 31 7 10 17 14 2 6 7 10 102 .481 .667 .710 42.5 25.5 4.3 3.5 0.5 1.5 2 Michael Cooper 32 4 4 163 17 45 9 27 5 6 1 5 6 27 7 2 2 14 48 .378 .333 .833 40.8 12.0 1.5 6.8 1.8 0.5 3 A.C. Green 25 4 4 134 11 25 0 3 13 19 11 26 37 2 4 1 6 15 35 .440 .000 .684 33.5 8.8 9.3 0.5 1.0 0.3 4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 41 4 4 104 20 46 0 0 10 12 5 15 20 7 2 3 8 11 50 .435 .833 26.0 12.5 5.0 1.8 0.5 0.8 5 Mychal Thompson 34 4 0 103 13 30 0 0 14 22 12 7 19 3 1 2 2 12 40 .433 .636 25.8 10.0 4.8 0.8 0.3 0.5 6 Orlando Woolridge 29 4 0 87 11 18 0 0 16 19 5 16 21 6 0 2 6 11 38 .611 .842 21.8 9.5 5.3 1.5 0.0 0.5 7 Tony Campbell 26 4 1 83 15 24 1 3 13 17 3 7 10 4 3 0 6 19 44 .625 .333 .765 20.8 11.0 2.5 1.0 0.8 0.0 8 Magic Johnson 29 3 3 75 12 26 1 5 10 11 3 8 11 24 3 0 5 4 35 .462 .200 .909 25.0 11.7 3.7 8.0 1.0 0.0 9 David Rivers 24 3 0 26 4 12 0 2 4 5 0 3 3 5 0 0 4 6 12 .333 .000 .800 8.7 4.0 1.0 1.7 0.0 0.0 10 Jeff Lamp 29 4 0 11 2 3 0 0 1 2 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 2 5 .667 .500 2.8 1.3 0.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 11 Mark McNamara 29 2 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

What elite PG wouldn't win that Finals matchup?

stop fuccing posting
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:03 PM   #41
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by Young X
He's definitely good enough to.

The Pistons didn't face one decent team in 1989 and they won with Thomas shooting 48 TS% in the playoffs.

CP3 is better than that version of Thomas at almost every facet of the game and is far more productive on the court.


Exactly. That was a very physical era and Zeke make his living taking it to the basket. He got beat up. He was already declining noticeably when they won their first title. He wasn't even a top 3 pg by then.

He had a very strong and very deep supporting cast.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

Things like these are always hard to say...

Zeke was a better overall scorer, better 1vs1 player, better/more handles to take his man off the dribble, better slasher/finisher... BUT you can say that CP3's a more complete player, call it... He's a better defensive player, you can claim that he takes better care of the ball while even being a slight better passer, he's a better shooter, more efficient... YET, he can't take over games like Isiah did, he's not close to the leader that Isiah was, Zeke was a cold blooded killer who raised his game when it mattered the most and simply better in the clutch than Chris, much tougher and more physical too... Some people overlook those sort of things but, then again, when you look at the whole picture, Thomas led his team to two rings while Paul has never made it past the Semifinals.

Plus, Isiah could be more impactful without holding on to the ball a whole lot... Chris wouldn't gel as well with those other Detroit's players.

Oh, and you see Paul flopping like a mf'er while in Isiah's day most little men like them didn't last that long... Dudes were getting slammed left and right, and it takes a toll when you're not a big dude.

So, imo, Chris Paul wouldn't have been quite as successful with those Pistons as Isiah Thomas was.

Go watch how Zeke was STILL killing Michael Cooper and the Lakers with a SEVERELY SPRAINED ANKLE in the 1988 Finals.
Go watch what Zeke did to Terry Porter and the Blazers in the 1990 Finals, one of the GOAT Finals performances.
CP3's one of my favorites right now and has one of the GOAT PG peaks but when the going got tough, Isiah was just a ****in assassin, ruthless player.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
Things like these are always hard to say...

Zeke was a better overall scorer, better 1vs1 player, better/more handles to take his man off the dribble, better slasher/finisher... BUT you can say that CP3's a more complete player, call it... He's a better defensive player, you can claim that he takes better care of the ball while even being a slight better passer, he's a better shooter, more efficient... YET, he can't take over games like Isiah did, he's not close to the leader that Isiah was, Zeke was a cold blooded killer who raised his game when it mattered the most and simply better in the clutch than Chris, much tougher and more physical too... Some people overlook those sort of things but, then again, when you look at the whole picture, Thomas led his team to two rings while Paul has never made it past the Semifinals.

Plus, Isiah could be more impactful without holding on to the ball a whole lot... Chris wouldn't gel as well with those other Detroit's players.

Oh, and you see Paul flopping like a mf'er while in Isiah's day most little men like them didn't last that long... Dudes were getting slammed left and right, and it takes a toll when you're not a big dude.

So, imo, Chris Paul wouldn't have been quite as successful with those Pistons as Isiah Thomas was.

Go watch how Zeke was STILL killing Michael Cooper and the Lakers with a SEVERELY SPRAINED ANKLE in the 1988 Finals.
Go watch what Zeke did to Terry Porter and the Blazers in the 1990 Finals, one of the GOAT Finals performances.
CP3's one of my favorites right now and has one of the GOAT PG peaks but when the going got tough, Isiah was just a ****in assassin, ruthless player.

Agree with everything except that CP3 was better at breaking down set defenders. He had a more modern, complete offensive arsenal and is the GOAT at TO/ AST ratio. Living in LA most of my life, I didn't get to see him full time until he got here. I was shocked at how great the guy was. Before he lost a half step last year, he could get to anywhere on the court with his dribble. That is something only a few players could ever do.
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Old 10-30-2015, 09:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
Agree with everything except that CP3 was better at breaking down set defenders. He had a more modern, complete offensive arsenal and is the GOAT at TO/ AST ratio. Living in LA most of my life, I didn't get to see him full time until he got here. I was shocked at how great the guy was. Before he lost a half step last year, he could get to anywhere on the court with his dribble. That is something only a few players could ever do.


I'll just put it at this... You can definitely make a case for Chris being better at taking care of the ball, even having the edge in passing BUT Zeke had better "1on1 handles", better in iso situations.

And also gotta emphasize how Isiah LED those group of guys now known to everybody as the Bad Boys, Zeke was their heart and soul.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:06 PM   #45
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Default Re: would chris paul have won the title in place of isiah thomas?

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Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT

I'll just put it at this... You can definitely make a case for Chris being better at taking care of the ball, even having the edge in passing BUT Zeke had better "1on1 handles", better in iso situations.

And also gotta emphasize how Isiah LED those group of guys now known to everybody as the Bad Boys, Zeke was their heart and soul.

Both are GOAT level talents for 6'1" or shorter guys but while Zeke was more flashy, I think CP3 was just better in terms of skills and complete game. Of course, Zeke was a killer and clutch as hell and that carries huge weight but in terms of breaking down set defenders and creating something out of nothing, CP3 was GOAT level. I have seldom seen a guy this good on a play by play, game by game and season by season basis. He just maximized almost every possession. All he needs is a chip and he skyrockets up the all time great list.
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