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Old 02-23-2010, 11:23 PM   #151
magnax1
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBASTATMAN
Pele is not consensus.. Maradona is their too....
no, but the majority chose Pele. At least as far as I know.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:25 PM   #152
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBASTATMAN
Pele is not consensus.. Maradona is their too....

Is there any sport where there is no debate other than basketball? The following have at least 2 strong GOAT candidates:

Football (for GOAT QB, which is the most popular GOAT discussion there)
Baseball
Tennis
Golf
NASCAR racing
Formula 1 racing (European-based)

The only other sport where there may be no debate is hockey, but from what I have heard there are some partisans for people like Howe or Orr there. In basketball it is like elections in the Soviet Union: 99% support for one guy! The accomplishment card does not work. As was noted by a few people on both sides, Jordan was elevated to GOAT by the media after 3 rings and 3 MVP's. Was he that much more dominant that it offset him having inferior overall accomplishments at that point? No. When it comes to dominance it is Wilt and then everyone else and Kareem, Shaq, Bird all have cases over Jordan in terms of peak play.

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no, but the majority chose Pele. At least as far as I know.

The key is there is a debate. Every sport has a majority GOAT, or at least one with a much bigger minority supporting him than the rest. Basketball is strange with 99% citing one guy.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:29 PM   #153
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Regarding Maris, that was a legit asterik on a real record. No one made a fake record by saying "Player X hit 55 home runs in 1972 and Player Y is on track to beat that in 1997."

Point taken.

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What modern era? What significant changes occurred in the game itself in 1980?

The introduction of the three point line.

Quote:
In football you have the 67' NFL-AFL merger, in the NBA the shot clock's introduction and in NASCAR the new points system/cut back schedule in 1972. Basketball in 1980 was the same as 1979 or 1969 for that matter.

By 1980, the NBA had merged with the ABA which was an active league in 1969. There was significant difference.

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Yes--and they widened the lane in order to limit him! Despite that he consistently dominated in his career.

He did, but could he have duplicated that streak had he been forced to play with that wider lane? That is the question. Even Abe admitted that his stats are skewed by his minutes, the pace of the game and the lane size at the time.

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The league average point is irrelevant. A record is a record, period. If we are going the league average route then Ruth's 60 >>>> everyone else forever. Besides, what was the league average in 1987 compared to 2010?

Point taken.

Quote:
No one. It is implicit. Since the Bulls and Suns can't win I am hoping the Cavs or Lakers win just so I can at the reaction to either Kobe's 5th or Lebron's 1st.

Ah, I see.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:31 PM   #154
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

LOL at Nascar. No one cares about that.

F1 is clearly Schumacher.
Tennis is now clearly Roger.
And no, consensus in soccer is Pele. Diego by most isn't considered top 5.
Golf is Tiger.

Most of these sports there is a consensus where 85-90% agree on one player with deliberation amongst 10 or so per cent.

Boxing and Football are the ones that have deliberation amongst many.

Basketball falls into the first category, where a particular player ala Michael Jordan clearly separated himself and is that 85-90% player people consider the greatest, simply because he is.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:37 PM   #155
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Jordan was elevated to GOAT by the media after 3 rings and 3 MVP's.

Yes it was all the media wasn't it.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:40 PM   #156
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
The key is there is a debate. Every sport has a majority GOAT, or at least one with a much bigger minority supporting him than the rest. Basketball is strange with 99% citing one guy.
Because hes that much freaking better! You 90% on here just decided while watching a Gatorade Commercial that Jordan was GOAT? Sure, a case can be made for a couple others, but the only reason you say he was worse was because he had Pippen and he had a couple losing seasons.
Stop spewing out the same stuff over and over and over. Make a logical point, or give up. Say he was a ballhog, or make a logical point. Stop saying he isn't GOAT because his team sucked his first couple seasons.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:56 PM   #157
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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F1 is clearly Schumacher.

Clearly? Not among those F1 fans who are aware that Schumacher dominated in an era of very weak competition--and that his chief competitors (Senna, Prost) raced in the toughest era ever. (Michael was lucky enough to come along when all the other GOAT candidates got old and retired, or sadly in Senna's case died, and then was lucky enough that his prime did not overlap with Alonso and Hamilton's. Sound familiar? )

I follow F1 and there definitely is a debate on GOAT there, especially among those who know Schumacher won his titles against Damon Hill , Hakkinen, Rubens, Raikkonen, and Coulthard. The best of these drivers is borderline top 10 all-time, and Hakkinen was legit competition for Schumacher only in 2000. Winning against Rubens, DC is a joke. Hill was not anywhere near worthy competition but Schumacher beating him was semi-respectable since Hill had substantially superior cars. I do consider MS the GOAT but there are legit arguments against him, with his pathetic competition topping the list.

Golf is Tiger? There is still a debate there. Most people expect Tiger to eventually eclipse Nicklaus but he has not done it to the tune of 80-90% yet.

I don't follow tennis closely so I can't comment on that, although I do see Sampras vs. Federer on ESPN now and then.

Quote:
The introduction of the three point line.

Hence the qualifier significant. The 3 point line had minimal impact at the beginning.

Quote:
By 1980, the NBA had merged with the ABA which was an active league in 1969. There was significant difference.

The merger was in 1976.

Quote:
Yes it was all the media wasn't it

Who said that? Why are you playing dumb? Your gimmick is Abe Lincoln. Presumably you then are a student of history, right? If so you should be aware of the role the media play in shaping perceptions of historical figures.

at Jordan fans ignoring the media role. Let's see what tune you guys sing in 3-5 years.

Quote:
Because hes that much freaking better!

Just like:

Federer>Sampras
Manning>Montana (although this coronation has been delayed)
Schumacher>Senna
Earnhardt>Petty
Tiger>Nicklaus

And coming soon to a media outlet near you:

Johnson>Earnhardt
Manning>Montana (delayed arrival, be patient)
Lebron>Jordan

How about hockey? Is Crosby set to "surpass" Gretzky too?

Quote:
the only reason you say he was worse was because he had Pippen and he had a couple losing seasons.



It is Jordan fans who foolishly invoke the team question. It was a Jordan fan who brought that up in this thread against Kareem.

As I said in the Kareem thread, Kareem is the GOAT because of:
Quote:
11-23-2009, 01:16 AM #1

Question Is Kareem the GOAT

Can anyone surpass the combination of individual achievement, impact on teams, longevity, and dominance of Kareem? I can see some players better than him in particular areas. You can argue Jordan in longevity (Malone too, but we are talking about top-tier greats here and Malone is in the next group); Shaq, Wilt, Bird, or Jordan in dominance/peak play; Shaq, Russell, Bird, or Duncan (winning a ring with "scrubs" in 03') in impact on teams; Wilt and Jordan in individual achievement. Can anyone match the combination Kareem has in these areas, though?

Individual achievement: 6 MVP's (1st all-time), top 5 in MVP voting 15x, all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, led the league in scoring 3x, led the league in rebounding 2x, led the league in blocks 4x, led the league in field goal percentage 1x, 15x all-NBA (10x first team), 11x all-Defense (5x first team), 19x all-star

Impact on teams: Took a 27 win expansion team to 56 wins and the conference finals as rookie, brought the Bucks their only championship in his second season. Whenever he was hurt during his prime his teams collapsed (i.e. going 3-14 without him when they were 35-30 with him dragging "scrubs").

Longevity: He was top-five in MVP voting at age 38. Can anyone else say this?

Dominance: He averaged 30/16/5 on 54% shooting during his prime.

Winning: 6 championships, 10 NBA finals, 14 conference finals, 18 winning seasons in 20 years.

Just look at Kareem's win totals: 56, 66, 63, 60, 58, 38*, 40, 53, 45, 47, 60, 54, 57, 58, 54, 62, 62, 65, 62, 57

*They were 3-14 without him, 35-30 with him. That is the difference between 44 wins or 14 wins.

If you factor in college (Kareem: 88-2 in college, 3 for 3 in winning championships, beat the #1 ranked team in the nation with a team of freshman, dominated so much they banned dunking, clearly the best college player of his time and probably all-time, etc.) and high school (79-2, 3 straight championships) it is no contest. Only Russell can match Kareem's amazing ability to win wherever he went, but Russell cannot match Kareem's individual brilliance.

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-24-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:05 AM   #158
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Who said that? Why are you playing dumb? Your gimmick is Abe Lincoln. Presumably you then are a student of history, right? If so you should be aware of the role the media play in shaping perceptions of historical figures.

at Jordan fans ignoring the media role. Let's see what tune you guys sing in 3-5 years.
Did you just call Abe a Jordan fan?

Hes one of the few people on here that agrees whith you that Jordan isn't the GOAT, but he can make logical points.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:10 AM   #159
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Who said that? Why are you playing dumb? Your gimmick is Abe Lincoln. Presumably you then are a student of history, right? If so you should be aware of the role the media play in shaping perceptions of historical figures.

at Jordan fans ignoring the media role. Let's see what tune you guys sing in 3-5 years.

It's not as if his level of play after baseball was superior or even equal to his play prior to his 1st retirement. He had a very legit argument being considered one of the top tier all time greats at the time, and it wasn't due to him being a product of the media. I understand this may be hard for an aroused Kobe fan to comprehend.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:14 AM   #160
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

I don't take any of those crazy stats from the 60s serious. 50 and 25. 30 and 15(From Baylor) Those guys ain't doing that today. Mj is clearly the Goat when you combine everything MVPs,rings,dominance,scoring titles,defense, etc......
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:17 AM   #161
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
Did you just call Abe a Jordan fan?

Hes one of the few people on here that agrees whith you that Jordan isn't the GOAT, but he can make logical points.

Jordan has as good a case as anyone for the greatest all things considered. The difference between me and these characters is that I attempt to promote the older legends as more than just mere scrubs, while these guys are strictly anti-Jordan.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:22 AM   #162
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
Jordan has as good a case as anyone for the greatest all things considered. The difference between me and these characters is that I attempt to promote the older legends as more than just mere scrubs, while these guys are strictly anti-Jordan.
I'm not trying to stick you in the same category as Roundball, like I said your arguements are logical, and like you said you don't just tear down Jordan.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:34 AM   #163
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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It's not as if his level of play after baseball was superior or even equal to his play prior to his 1st retirement. He had a very legit argument being considered one of the top tier all time greats at the time,

Who disputes that? Again, why are you once again playing dumb?

Regarding Kobe, the same process may play out with Kobe. Why do you think the media views 6 or 7 rings as magic numbers for Kobe? What makes them better than 4, 5, or 8?

Quote:
Mj is clearly the Goat when you combine everything MVPs,rings,dominance,scoring titles,defense, etc.....

Perhaps but a case can be made for Kareem as well using a combination. For Russell it would have to be skewed toward winning, Wilt individual play but one could create a case based on a combination for Kareem. See a few posts above.

Quote:
The difference between me and these characters is that I attempt to promote the older legends as more than just mere scrubs, while these guys are strictly anti-Jordan.

This guy views everything through the lens of Jordan and Kobe. Yet he clearly is a Wilt fan? I don't know who he actually is a fan of. I don't care but his gimmick has Jordan-fan tendencies like this. Anyone who credits an older legend must be doing it to diminish Jordan.

Quote:
like I said your arguements are logical, and like you said you don't just tear down Jordan.

This coming from someone who claimed Magic isn't top 3 all-time among PG's and Lebron at best will be top 15 all-time. Where were you, Abe? The wise man did not seek to educate a youthful fan regarding an older legend in that case. Where are you in the West thread? You are here diminishing the media vis-a-vis Jordan and the GOAT question--and odd position for a "Wilt fan"--but an older legend from your alleged favorite era is being diminished as not even on Wade's level and you are pretty much silent?

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-24-2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:42 AM   #164
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

The funny thing is Roundball, you love to hype up Lebron now, mentioning that his prime could be the greatest of all time, etc... Though you never like to mention Lebron is getting the most media exposure ever in terms of NBA players. Yet still people think Jordan is the man.

Reason? Because Jordan was clearly a step above everyone else.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:42 AM   #165
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Your arguements aren't logical because you say Kareem is the GOAT, but your whole arguement is based off Jordan being over rated and not the GOAT.
A logical arguement is Jordan gambled on defense more compared to Kareem, or its easier to build a winning team around a dominant bigman. Instead you say Jordan didn't win his first couple seasons (which is environmental and doesn't show how good Jordan was) and he had the best defender ever.
I could go around saying Kareem only won with 2 of the four best point guards ever to prove that Jordan was the GOAT. Except...... that doesn't make sense.

Last edited by magnax1 : 02-24-2010 at 12:46 AM.
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