The top 25 players from 2000-2009

[Dukem]

Amazingly, the Kings won 59 games in '03 while rarely having their full lineup.

Mike Bibby missed the first 27 games of the season, Peja missed 10 games and Bobby Jackson missed a 21 game stretch that started just 5 games into Bibby's return, then Webber missed a 10 game stretch that started while Jackson was still out, and Webber had missed 5 games earlier in the year.

So they really didn't have their full core until the last 26 games of the season when they went 21-5.



T-Mac did have a case over Kobe based on individual play, but I was barely comfortable as it was putting a player top 5 when his team won just over 20 games and finished with the worst record. It's easy to forget, but Kobe did make the finals and play very well after the all-star break while also having a strong series vs the Spurs and a pretty good one vs Minnesota. His approach in the finals was inexcusable and he had his struggles throughout that year, but making the finals is still an accomplishment. Especially since the Lakers didn't turn out to be the super team some imagined due to Malone's injury that kept him out half the season and pretty much made him incapable of playing in the finals, while Payton was declining and a poor fit in the triangle offense. Kobe also has more excuses for his struggles, while T-Mac admittedly didn't always give 100%.

It's debatable when I think about it, but Kobe is the better choice, imo.

But you don't think T-Mac had a case over Kobe in '05? T-Mac impressed me more than in '04, while Kobe had another down year, this time without the team success unlike '04, while T-Mac led Houston to 51 wins.

It was during the playoffs of 2003 where I thought that this Kings team has a big chance to win it all, they just played with flair and were just as good of a passing team as the Kings the previous year.

I see your point about 2004, but although T-Mac had an awful season with the Magic, the team were absolutely shocking and I was surprised they managed to string more than 15 wins together. T-Mac during that season was still on top form (obviously not the standard of the 2003 T-Mac) where as Kobe in my opinion, regressed a little and it's hard not to mention his performance in the 2004 finals. That's why I have them neck and neck for this season as although the Magic were god awful that year, T-Mac still had a great season on an individual standpoint. Kobe kind of regressed but his team reached the NBA final. It wouldn't bother me if people put one over the other though but I can see your point.

Now that you mention it, 2004-2005 T-Mac does have a big case over Kobe but at the same time, Kobe had the better individual stats and now a worse team after Malone and Shaq had departed. Kobe and T-Mac was more of an all round player this season with the latter now having a better team in the Rockets than he had with the Magic. It wouldn't bother me if people put T-Mac over Kobe this season though for he did lead the team to the playoffs and that 13 points in 35 seconds is an unbelievable performance against the defending champion Spurs. I'd say neck-and-neck again although i'm favoring Kobe slightly though.

2006 Kobe was on fire and was my favorite season from him. T-Mac doesn't have a case against Kobe this season, even if T-mac had a good season (not quite as good as previous seasons though in my opinion) as Kobe's team is almost as bad as them Magic teams of 2001-2004.

[StateOfMind12]

Dirk on the other hand did not have as much of a defensive impact as Yao, but he was a pretty average defender by that point. And he was the only one out of the 3 that truly had the ability to truly carry a team offensively. Yao had that ability in '07, though.

Fair enough, but let me ask you this. If 2007 Yao replaced 2009 Yao for the 2009 season rankings, where would he rank in 2009? I would have him at the top 5 at least and above Howard and Dirk. I go back and forth between 2011 Howard and 2007 Yao though but I feel like Howard wasn't as good as peak Yao was in 2007 or Yao was in 2009. I don't think Dirk in his peak was ever as good as either Yao or Dwight either. He just didn't do enough to impact the game compared to the two but his overall career and historical ranking is clearly above both of them though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It was during the playoffs of 2003 where I thought that this Kings team has a big chance to win it all, they just played with flair and were just as good of a passing team as the Kings the previous year.

Yeah, they clearly had more talent in the league than anyone, and were the stacked team in the league that year. Dallas had a lot of talent with Dirk, Nash, Finley and Van Exel, but they didn't have the same kind of talent after that compared to the Kings, and Sacramento took them to 7 largely without C-Webb.

We were very close to seeing another Lakers/Kings series which would have been a great rematch because that seemed like it could have been the best rivalry of the 00's. If Horry's 3 stays down in game 5 vs the Spurs, the Lakers probably advance. And the series was that close even with Fox being injured, George eventually getting injured and Horry going through an 0/18 slump on 3s in the series.

I see your point about 2004, but although T-Mac had an awful season with the Magic, the team were absolutely shocking and I was surprised they managed to string more than 15 wins together. T-Mac during that season was still on top form (obviously not the standard of the 2003 T-Mac) where as Kobe in my opinion, regressed a little and it's hard not to mention his performance in the 2004 finals. That's why I have them neck and neck for this season as although the Magic were god awful that year, T-Mac still had a great season on an individual standpoint. Kobe kind of regressed but his team reached the NBA final. It wouldn't bother me if people put one over the other though but I can see your point.

Individually, it is close. It would be interesting to see what they would have done in each other's place this season.

Now that you mention it, 2004-2005 T-Mac does have a big case over Kobe but at the same time, Kobe had the better individual stats and now a worse team after Malone and Shaq had departed. Kobe and T-Mac was more of an all round player this season with the latter now having a better team in the Rockets than he had with the Magic. It wouldn't bother me if people put T-Mac over Kobe this season though for he did lead the team to the playoffs and that 13 points in 35 seconds is an unbelievable performance against the defending champion Spurs. I'd say neck-and-neck again although i'm favoring Kobe slightly though.

Kobe's stats were a little better, but he didn't play as impressively to me as T-Mac did that season. The first month of the season, T-Mac was trying to fit in, and the Rockets started out just 6-10. Van Gundy told T-Mac to assert himself more, and he averaged 27/6/6, 1.9 spg, on 44% the rest of the way with just 2.5 TO while averaging exactly 2 made threes, and Houston finished 45-21 before raising his game in the playoffs.

I think it makes more sense than T-Mac being over Kobe in '04 because T-Mac improved in '05, while Kobe had another disappointing year similar to '04.

2006 Kobe was on fire and was my favorite season from him. T-Mac doesn't have a case against Kobe this season, even if T-mac had a good season (not quite as good as previous seasons though in my opinion) as Kobe's team is almost as bad as them Magic teams of 2001-2004.

Yeah, this is when Kobe separated himself from T-Mac and the comparisons really ended.

Fair enough, but let me ask you this. If 2007 Yao replaced 2009 Yao for the 2009 season rankings, where would he rank in 2009? I would have him at the top 5 at least and above Howard and Dirk. I go back and forth between 2011 Howard and 2007 Yao though but I feel like Howard wasn't as good as peak Yao was in 2007 or Yao was in 2009. I don't think Dirk in his peak was ever as good as either Yao or Dwight either. He just didn't do enough to impact the game compared to the two but his overall career and historical ranking is clearly above both of them though.

Yao ranked lower in '07 because of an injury, so those 48 games would still probably prevent him from being any higher in '09.

I do think he was playing better in '07 before his injury than Dwight played in '09, though.

[StateOfMind12]

Yao ranked lower in '07 because of an injury, so those 48 games would still probably prevent him from being any higher in '09.

I do think he was playing better in '07 before his injury than Dwight played in '09, though.

I was just asking did you think Yao in 2007 was a better player than Dirk and Dwight were in 2009, not a better season. I suppose your answer is yes in this case. I think if Yao was injury-free in 2007, he would probably be top 5 at least as well which is even more impressive considering how there were more talented players in 2007.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I was just asking did you think Yao in 2007 was a better player than Dirk and Dwight were in 2009, not a better season. I suppose your answer is yes in this case. I think if Yao was injury-free in 2007, he would probably be top 5 at least as well which is even more impressive considering how there were more talented players in 2007.

He was a better player in '07 than both of them '09, yes. Whenever I think of that season it kind of bothers me because that was a freak injury, I believe he just came down on a Clipper player's foot. He had been shocking me with how many dominant he was before that, I never thought he had that type of potential. He did return from that injury at roughly the same level, and was healthy for the playoffs despite not having his best series, which is why the missed games don't hurt him as much as '06 and '08. The season would get more respect had he at least played 65-70 games, or gotten to the WCF, which they were almost guaranteed to do had they held on in game 7 vs the Jazz because of the Warriors upsetting the Mavs.

Yao was on his way to having a top 5 season. I don't think anyone was playing better than him prior to his injury in late December. He was unstoppable by that point in the low post, and more of a power player than people realize. His strength was underrated, which is why he was attempting over 8 free throws, but you couldn't stop him that way because he was shooting like 86%. His jump hook and turnaround jumper were almost automatic because he had a great touch, and you couldn't really challenge the shots. He also had good footwork, and solid mobility for his size.

The impressive thing was also that Yao was playing well every night. The consistency was because he had those 2 unstoppable shots, and you couldn't foul him, but he'd get to the line regularly. He scored 20+ in 23 of his 26 games before his injury.

A game I've wanted to see for 5 years now is the early season game between Yao and Shaq. Yao outscored him 34-15, outrebounded him 14-10, shot 11-19 from the floor and 12-13 from the line vs O'Neal's 6/14 from the floor and 3-9 from the line.

I've only seen highlights from that game, but I remember reading an article the day after that game that talked about the torch officially being passed from Shaq to Yao. That's when I think I really started taking notice of Yao's early season dominance.

I'm actually wondering if I should move Yao over Wade and Garnett for '07 because at least Yao wasn't limited by his injury in the playoffs like Wade was.

[Eat Like A Bosh]

He was a better player in '07 than both of them '09, yes. Whenever I think of that season it kind of bothers me because that was a freak injury, I believe he just came down on a Clipper player's foot. He had been shocking me with how many dominant he was before that, I never thought he had that type of potential. He did return from that injury at roughly the same level, and was healthy for the playoffs despite not having his best series, which is why the missed games don't hurt him as much as '06 and '08. The season would get more respect had he at least played 65-70 games, or gotten to the WCF, which they were almost guaranteed to do had they held on in game 7 vs the Jazz because of the Warriors upsetting the Mavs.

Yao was on his way to having a top 5 season. I don't think anyone was playing better than him prior to his injury in late December. He was unstoppable by that point in the low post, and more of a power player than people realize. His strength was underrated, which is why he was attempting over 8 free throws, but you couldn't stop him that way because he was shooting like 86%. His jump hook and turnaround jumper were almost automatic because he had a great touch, and you couldn't really challenge the shots. He also had good footwork, and solid mobility for his size.

The impressive thing was also that Yao was playing well every night. The consistency was because he had those 2 unstoppable shots, and you couldn't foul him, but he'd get to the line regularly. He scored 20+ in 23 of his 26 games before his injury.

A game I've wanted to see for 5 years now is the early season game between Yao and Shaq. Yao outscored him 34-15, outrebounded him 14-10, shot 11-19 from the floor and 12-13 from the line vs O'Neal's 6/14 from the floor and 3-9 from the line.

I've only seen highlights from that game, but I remember reading an article the day after that game that talked about the torch officially being passed from Shaq to Yao. That's when I think I really started taking notice of Yao's early season dominance.

I'm actually wondering if I should move Yao over Wade and Garnett for '07 because at least Yao wasn't limited by his injury in the playoffs like Wade was.

This game?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...611120MIA.html
2007 was the beginning of the end of Shaq, as he's officially out of his prime. Although he did look rejuvenated for periods in Phoenix.

Yao played 48 games that season, while Wade played 51, while Garnett played 76. I don't remember whether or not KG made the playoffs that year(probably not since he's still on the T-wolves), but I would rank it as Garnett, Yao, Wade. Wade got swept by the Chicago Bulls that season? At least Yao's team had a competitive series against the Jazz. Totally should've won that series though

[ShaqAttack3234]

This game?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...611120MIA.html
2007 was the beginning of the end of Shaq, as he's officially out of his prime. Although he did look rejuvenated for periods in Phoenix

Yeah, that game. Shaq was officially past his prime long before '07. '02 or '03 was his last prime season. After '03, his decade long streak of seasons between 26-30 ppg was snapped.

His true prime was about '98-'02 or '03, but you could extend it with years that were relatively close to that level from '95-'03.

He was still a top 3 player in '04 and '05, but he clearly didn't have the mobility he used to anymore, and he was banged up by playoff time in '05 despite losing 20-30 pounds before that season, and despite playing a career low 34 mpg. He missed playoff games for the first time that year(and only time aside from his last year with Boston) and clearly wasn't himself.

He did have that resurgence in Phoenix when he was one of the best offensive big men in the league had some big games including 45/11 and played well vs all of the premier big men(Dwight, Yao, Gasol, Duncan).

But he also played very well after that all-star break in '07. He led Miami to a 16-7 record without Wade. He didn't make my top 25 list for '07 because he didn't qualify, but there weren't 25 players who made a bigger impact than Shaq did in the second half of the year.

Yao played 48 games that season, while Wade played 51, while Garnett played 76. I don't remember whether or not KG made the playoffs that year(probably not since he's still on the T-wolves), but I would rank it as Garnett, Yao, Wade. Wade got swept by the Chicago Bulls that season? At least Yao's team had a competitive series against the Jazz. Totally should've won that series though

Wade did play 51 games, but he might as well have only played 45, since those were the games he played in the first half. He got injured in the first game after the all-star break vs Houston, came back and played a few games late in the season and the playoffs, but he was clearly not recovered, and shouldn't have been playing.

Yao on the otherhand recovered from that injury and was healthy for the playoffs, which makes his injury less damaging than Wade's despite technically playing 3 fewer games in the regular season(but 3 more in the playoffs).

Garnett pretty much his usual statistical season in '07(22/13/4, 1.7 bpg, 1.2 spg), and he was in the tail end of his prime, or slightly past it and still close. But his FG% did drop from 52.6% in '06 to 47.6%, his lowest since '02 when offensive numbers were down in general, and the 3rd lowest behind '99 and '02.

His team only won 32 games, and fell well short of the playoffs, but they were terrible. They went 0-6 without KG and his cast was Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Trenton Hassell, Mike James, rookie Randy Foye, Marko Jaric and rookie Craig Smith.

Going 32-44 with that team is actually pretty impressive, and we saw what KG could do the following year with Boston.

Amazingly with that team, the '07 Wolves were 20-20 before they fired Dwyane Casey. The Wolves owner did excuse KG of giving up on that team, though.

I don't remember that much about KG's '07 season in particular other than the same great player on a bad team story like the previous 2 years. He was on national television less by that point, I think he watched KG play maybe a half dozen times that year give or take. I know he had lost a bit by that point compared to '03 or '04, but he didn't seem to have lost much yet. I don't think he really lost A LOT until after he won his championship.

[dunksby]

I don't wanna drop a one liner about my fav player like a jackass and undermine your efforts but Durant at #22 for 2009 just does not sit well with me, I have to speak out on this injustice Come now the only guy to average 30+ that year, making the playoffs in West and winning two against the defending and eventual champions and you ranked him under Bosh on the Craptors?

[Deuce Bigalow]

I don't wanna drop a one liner about my fav player like a jackass and undermine your efforts but Durant at #22 for 2009 just does not sit well with me, I have to speak out on this injustice Come now the only guy to average 30+ that year, making the playoffs in West and winning two against the defending and eventual champions and you ranked him under Bosh on the Craptors?

Durant did that in 2009-10, not 2008-09.

[dunksby]

Durant did that in 2009-10, not 2008-09.

ah you are right always confuse that shit

[WockaVodka]

Dirk should be ranked over Dwight in 2009. Dirk's best season and version was 2009. It gets underrated though because he only got to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

He was easily a top 5 player in the league then.

[Shade8780]

I think LeBron should be around the 20-23 mark for 2004. How did he go from not being on the list, to 9th in one year?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dirk should be ranked over Dwight in 2009. Dirk's best season and version was 2009. It gets underrated though because he only got to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

He was easily a top 5 player in the league then.

He definitely has a case over Dwight, but I don't think that's the best Dirk has been.

The best I've seen Dirk's all around game was the '06-'07 season when he was voted MVP, and rightfully so based on the regular season, although it is tough to call that his best season even just based on the 1st round, which doesn't represent the type of player Dirk was, but is tough to overlook when talking about that season.

So I'd probably go with '06 as Dirk's best. it was the closest regular season he had to '07 with another 60 win season as well as arguably his best individual produiction(26.6 ppg, 9 rpg, 2.8 apg, 1.9 TO, 1 bpg, 48 FG%, 40.6 3P%, 90.1 FT%) and a playoff run compared to 2011 with the exception of the choke job finals. Same type of big games and clutch moments throughout that run, though and the same offense with much more rebounding. I'd say he was just a little smarter and more efficient and a bit better as a passer and defender in '07 than '06, but his game had pretty much evolved to the same point.

But he wasn't far off in '09, it was really a comeback season of sorts after a quiet '08 season by his standards when his status seemed to drop a bit. In fairness, his reputation was still damaged by the '07 playoffs, but '09 really rebuilt his reputation finishing 4th in scoring at 26 per game, returning to the all-nba 1st team, and some of the best ball he ever played in the playoffs.

I don't blame Dirk for losing in the semifinals that year, his cast wasn't as talented as it was in previous years, imo and he played about as well as you could hope for. He arguably played better than Melo, imo, but didn't get the same hype during that postseason and just happened to run into a Denver team with more talent, probably as much as any team in the league. The Mavs chances were killed by late game mistakes, but Dirk averaged 34/12/4 on 53/39/92 shooting in the series.

However, I went with Dwight because of his two-way impact and how far his impact and presence got Orlando. Dwight didn't have great personnel, but as the league's leading shot blocker who was also an ambidextrous shot blocker, the most athletic big man and a relentless defender who contested everything, he covered for his teammates numerous mistakes to make Orlando the best defensive team statistically despite not having great defensive personnel around him(though the Celtics with KG healthy were clearly the best defensive team).

Outside of that, Howard still averaged almost 21 ppg on 57% during the season and over 20 ppg on 60% shooting during the playoffs, and averaged almost 14 rpg in the season and over 15 in the playoffs. His defensive impact was unmatched at that time, but unlike many of the recent defensive anchors, he was also leading his team in scoring with an extremely efficient 20+ per game. His offensive game still wasn't that polished, but he had made improvements that year becoming confident with the moves that he did have such as running hooks with either hands and occasional spin moves while also capitalizing on his ability to run the floor as well as offensive rebounds, alley oops and screen/rolls with Turkoglu and Nelson. And he had become the dominant rebounder in the league becoming just the 5th player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks. And with the ability to go off for games such as the 45/19/8 he had in a regular season game or the 40/14/4 he had to closeout the Cavs in the ECF, it became tough to find another two-way player like that.

His overall impact at both ends was the primary reason Orlando exceeded expectations by winning 59 games and upsetting a 66 win Cavs team to get to the finals. And even vs a veteran Laker team that was built better with fewer weaknesses and a more reliable offense, Orlando was able to compete. Despite losing in 5 games, game 2 was up for grabs with Courtney Lee missing the potential game-winning lay up in regulation. That would have stolen homecourt advantage and tied the series. Game 4 was also all but locked up for Orlando. This would have tied the series as well, but Orlando missed some key free throws(including 2 by Howard) to just leave the door open), and then Jameer Nelson's defensive mistake allowed Fisher to send the game into OT.

A loss is a loss, but the point of this is that Orlando had the ability to contend for a championship, what ultimately prevented them from making a serious run at beating the Lakers was inexperience and mistakes we see from young teams late in games 2 and 4 which dramatically altered the series. And that was in a series where Howard struggled offensively. He wasn't averaging 26/13/3 on 65 FG% as he did in the ECF vs Cleveland, but he was still making a big enough impact to compete vs a top team despite being contained to just over 15 ppg on 49% shooting because of his defense(4 bpg including a finals record 9 in game 4) and rebounding(over 15 per game).

So I went for Howard because of his uncommon ability to impact the game in ways other than scoring while still averaging 20 on unusual efficiency. Dirk having the clear edge as an offensive player, particularly when it comes to ability to take over a game is a convincing argument on his part, but Howard's all around impact and the success it led to gave him the edge for me.

They're in the same tier, and I believe it just comes down to personal preference because it's that close as far as I'm concerned. It's difficult to choose between 2 franchise players who dominate in different ways.

I think LeBron should be around the 20-23 mark for 2004. How did he go from not being on the list, to 9th in one year?

it was his rookie year to his second year. Most players make massive improvements.

This is also reflected statistically(though this is somewhat deceptive due to the years).

2004- 20.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.9 apg, 3.5 TO, 41.7 FG%, 48.8 TS%
2005- 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg, 3.3 TO, 47.2 FG%, 55.4 TS%

That is a massive improvement, and focusing more specifically on his shooting.

16-23 feet
2004- 1.4 made, 4.0 attempted, 35.2%
2005- 2.0 made, 5.2 attempted, 37.2%

3 point
2004- 0.8 made, 2.7 attempted, 29.0%
2005- 1.4 made, 3.9 attempted, 35.1%

He was still not a good shooter in '05, but he went from having no jump shot at all to a pretty good 3 point shooter

And then there's just learning how to play the NBA game as well as both a facilitator and as a scorer. He clearly improved in that area in his second season. He had the physical ability from day one, and the natural ability as a passer, but was able to put a lot more of it to use in his second season.

I was initially going to put him towards the bottom of the 2004 list, but I was thinking, if not for his name and the kind of player he became, would he be on the list? Was rookie Lebron really going to help a team win more in that particular year than the other players on the lsit? I'm definitely not convinced of that.

Admittedly, an argument can be made for him being in the lower part of the 2004 list, and also being a few spots higher than he was in 2005. Either way, there's no question he made a huge improvement between from his rookie season to his 2nd season.

[RandyOrton]

Great lists. As you well know, I'm not a fan of Bryant's, but I feel he was a better player than Wade in 2009.

[franchiez]

Lebron should be listed in 2004. Even though he was a rookie he was amazing.