Pre-injuries Grant Hill vs. Scottie Pippen

[jrong]

(This is an appropriate comparison thread for Scottie Pippen)

Pippen was better defensively, and Hill was better offensively, but to me this is a matchup that tennis announcer Cliff Drysdale would call "dead solid even" (Why the Cliff Drysdale reference? Because it's US Open time, and I felt like it....)

Some might disagree, but I don't think even a prime Hill was cut out to be a #1 option on a championship-level team. However, with the right pairing, he could have given Scottie a run for his money as the best #2 ever (throwing whichever one turns out to play the sidekick role between Wade/Bron into that discussion is not fair)....

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pippen was a lot better defensively and they were basically equal in the other aspects of the game. Hill was a better ball handler and had a better pull up jumper, but Pippen had a longer wingspan, was atleast as good of a passer, had a better post game and more range on his jumper. Both were deadly in the open court, point forwards and excellent rebounders for their position, but Pippen's defense set him apart.

[jrong]

Pippen was a lot better defensively and they were basically equal in the other aspects of the game. Hill was a better ball handler and had a better pull up jumper, but Pippen had a longer wingspan, was atleast as good of a passer, had a better post game and more range on his jumper. Both were deadly in the open court, point forwards and excellent rebounders for their position, but Pippen's defense set him apart.

I think you are undercrediting Grant Hill. I'm inclined to give the edge to Pippen too, but I think I'm probably being swayed by the rings, and I would bet that you are also.

The one full season Pippen played without Jordan, he basically put up prime Hill numbers. Interestingly though, Scottie's numbers as "the man" are not substantially different than his numbers during his best seasons playing alongside Jordan.

And in both cases, those are those are the numbers of a #2 option, as were those of Grant Hill. But, like I said, if Hill had stayed healthy and had found the right alpha-dog, I think he could have definitely made a run at the title of best second option ever....

[SinJackal]

Have to agree with Shaq. Pippen's defense was very elite. It definitely set him apart from Hill. He was also a bigger 3pt threat. Hill was very good though, and I can see the comparison to Pippen.

Pippen was a great #2, but he also proved to be a good #1 as well when Jordan retired. He led the Bulls to over 50 wins the following year. Both are pretty underappreciated.

[DatWasNashty]

I'd take Scottie for his defensive prowess. Scottie has a vast edge there which makes him a superior overall player. Grant's stats were a bit inflated in the system Doug Collins ran. He ran the penetrate and pinch offense that allowed Hill to handle the ball and kick out to shooters. He was also surrounded by deadly shooters like Dumars, Houston and co. MJ also had his best pure statistical season under Collins when he made a PG. So, Hill's stats don't impress me that much; at least not under proper context. Pippen's numbers were kind of held back in the triangle because it's not a system based on a player dominating the ball and he had to share duties with MJ.

Hill does have an edge on offense since he's more of an assertive, dynamic and aggressive scorer. He had one of the best handles for anyone 6'7"+ as well as an explosive first step and more of an unpredictable game. Good mid range game as well. He never impressed me in the playoffs, however.

Pippen's edge on the defensive end can't be ignored and he's a superior playoff performer as well although there isn't an extensive sample from Hill's Detroit days. I also felt Scottie was a smarter player in terms of knowing what to do and knowing how to operate properly in a system. I'd say he has an edge on range by default. All in all, I'm leaning towards Scottie and I love Hill here in Phoenix.

I feel Penny was better than Hill contrary to the popular belief. He was a much better player than what his stats reflect and just a very creative, innovative and veteran savvy type of guy. His '97 series against Miami is one of the best individual series I've seen by a player.

[noob cake]

Hill had the handling, shooting, athleticism, IQ, and work ethic to be GOAT.

[Bigsmoke]

Hill had the handling, shooting, athleticism, IQ, and work ethic to be GOAT.

and a subpar playoffs performer.

i was following the NBA back then and do not remember him being a Lebron james of 10-15 years ago at all.

[CambyLandCan]

Sounds like people forgot how terrific of a player pre-injury Hill was.

[Rose]

Scottie's defense just makes him better. Although I do admire Hill's defense now-a-days. I think it's pretty solid considering he's 37. But Pip was just a better defender. But I do feel it's pretty close.

[Roundball_Rock]

The one full season Pippen played without Jordan, he basically put up prime Hill numbers. Interestingly though, Scottie's numbers as "the man" are not substantially different than his numbers during his best seasons playing alongside Jordan.

And? That is a good thing. That is why he won wherever he went. He was not a ballhog trying to take 25 shots a night. Players like Pippen and Duncan (he always was in the 20-23 ppg range in his prime, aside from one year at 25.5)>Dominique and AI types. Check out the W-L column.

"He had a phenomenal year," Paxson said. "I think the thing that stood out the most to me that year was that statistically, things didn't change much for Scottie from what his years were with Michael. You could always pencil Scottie in for between 20 and 23 points a game, he would have the eight, nine rebounds, the five, six, seven assists. And it didn't deviate [without Jordan] which to me that spoke volumes, and I think to those of us who were teammates, it showed what kind of a teammate he was. He wasn't out there to try to prove to people that he could score 30. For Scottie it was about winning. And we won 55 games that year, mostly because of him."

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bull...great-teammate

The answer is Pippen. They are similar offensively, although Hill was a bit better, but Pippen crushes him defensively. Pippen also was a superior leader.

Pippen was a lot better defensively and they were basically equal in the other aspects of the game. Hill was a better ball handler and had a better pull up jumper, but Pippen had a longer wingspan, was atleast as good of a passer, had a better post game and more range on his jumper. Both were deadly in the open court, point forwards and excellent rebounders for their position, but Pippen's defense set him apart.

[JayGuevara]

Didn't Hill win a defensive player of the year award in college? I never really thought of him as a defensive liability, though obviously Pippen was a better defender, but I feel like people in here are thinkin he was just terrible.

But I think a lot of you are forgetting how good Grant Hill was. In his 3rd year, he led a Pistons team to 54 wins with a pretty bad cast around him. He had a declining 33 year old Dumars average 14.7/4 (though Dumars did have manage 79 games that year, after being in the 60's the past couple), Lindsey Hunter averaging 14/2 (random note: I forgot how inefficient he was, his highest year in FG% was 43.5), a 34 year old Otis Thorpe, and Terry Mills averaging almost 11 and almost 5 off the bench. And that year Hill averaged 21.4, 9 rebounds, and 7.3 assists, on just under 50% shooting. Maybe I'm looking back through a biased view cuz I really liked Grant Hill as a kid, but I don't seem to recall him every having a very "good/great" team.

The 2nd best player on his teams here was either a declining Dumars or Jerry Stackhouse. After that was Lindsey Hunter. It wasn't exactly the Heat, ya know? In his last year in Detroit Christian Laettner started all 82 games. Who wasn't really THAT bad, but it's Christian Laettner. Luckily they hadn't gotten to the "Start Michael Curry a shitload of games" phase yet though.

However I do admit that Grant Hill never led the team to any real postseason success. Of course neither did Dumars/Stackhouse/Lindsey/etc. But his numbers were still solid, and he lost to Shaq and Penny in 96 (no shame there), and a pretty damn good Hawks team in 97 and 99.

[Round Mound]

Pippen was a lot better defensively and they were basically equal in the other aspects of the game. Hill was a better ball handler and had a better pull up jumper, but Pippen had a longer wingspan, was atleast as good of a passer, had a better post game and more range on his jumper. Both were deadly in the open court, point forwards and excellent rebounders for their position, but Pippen's defense set him apart.

This

[momo]

(This is an appropriate comparison thread for Scottie Pippen)

Pippen was better defensively, and Hill was better offensively, but to me this is a matchup that tennis announcer Cliff Drysdale would call "dead solid even" (Why the Cliff Drysdale reference? Because it's US Open time, and I felt like it....)

Some might disagree, but I don't think even a prime Hill was cut out to be a #1 option on a championship-level team. However, with the right pairing, he could have given Scottie a run for his money as the best #2 ever (throwing whichever one turns out to play the sidekick role between Wade/Bron into that discussion is not fair)....

I would have enjoyed seeing Hill on a squad of #2, sort of like what the 03-04 pistons had working... no clear cut #1 but a bunch of capable defenders who can mostly all score. That would have been interesting to me.

Pip VS Hill is pretty compelling. Pip is the choice for the reasons stated already in the thread... call it the freak thing. And the "I would gnaw off my own finger for a ring" thing. Most people would pick him. But Hill was really freeking good. He had the full package.

[jrong]

I feel Penny was better than Hill contrary to the popular belief. He was a much better player than what his stats reflect and just a very creative, innovative and veteran savvy type of guy. His '97 series against Miami is one of the best individual series I've seen by a player.

That I agree with. I'll put a healthy, prime Penny above either one because he's a legit offensive #1, something I don't think either Pippen or Hill were meant to be. Shaq/Penny was much closer to Shaq/Kobe than it was to Jordan/Pippen.

And? That is a good thing. That is why he won wherever he went. He was not a ballhog trying to take 25 shots a night.

The fact that his numbers didn't significantly change with or without Jordan also shows that he played with good teammates-- with or without Jordan....

And nobody takes 25 shots anymore. Kobe had one year at 27, but that was an outlier. LeBron and Wade have each led the league in scoring on 22 shots.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I feel Penny was better than Hill contrary to the popular belief. He was a much better player than what his stats reflect and just a very creative, innovative and veteran savvy type of guy. His '97 series against Miami is one of the best individual series I've seen by a player.

I also think Penny was better. The fact that he could post up almost any guard defending him and hit 3s made him a better scorer than Hill, IMO. I also feel he was a better passer, the assist numbers are almost identical, but I think most who watched them will agree with me, and a reason for Penny's assists not being higher is because he wasn't in the ball-dominant role Hill was. A lot of Orlando's offense went through Shaq in the post. Penny was also more clutch and a better leader than Hill, IMO. People look back on the stats and see that Hill's rebounding made his stats look a lot more impressive, but really, i didn't notice Hill's rebounding to be the difference in impact when I was watching them, besides, Penny had both Shaq and Horace Grant in his prime. A Past his prime Penny averaged 6 boards with the Suns in 2000 and the difference between Hill and Penny was defensive rebounding which isn't a fair comparison because when you don't have very good big men on your team, defensive boards which often go uncontested will go to the perimeter player easier, this happened with Jason Kidd a lot. Penny had Shaq and Grant in the paint to grab the rebounds.