How is Shaq not at least top 5 all-time?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Still, we need to remember that Wilt produced many of his stats at the expense of his team.

Keep spreading the myths.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

To clear up any confusion, "adjusted for pace" would mean in contrast to the other great bigs in history, not Shaq. Minor error in my previous post.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Good question.

He's won more titles than Bird, Chamberlain and Olajuwon.
Many consider his peak to be the best ever
He's had superior longevity to Magic, Bird, Chamberlain and Russell
Best player on the only non-Bulls or Celtics 3peat ever
Won 2 scoring titles(narrowly missed 3 more(lost to Robinson by 0.5 ppg in '94, by 0.4 ppg to Jordan in '98 and 0.3 ppg to Iverson in '99). And it's important to note that if Robinson hadn't padded his stats on the last day of the season, O'Neal would have had 3.

Shaq's mix of individual dominance didn't come at the expense of the team. O'Neal is one of only 4 players to win a scoring title and championship in the same season. The other 3 are Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar and Mikan.

Shaq is also now 5th on the all time scoring list and he's led the league in FG% more times than anyone else.

It's true that O'Neal wasn't an Olajuwon or Russell type defender, but the impact he made defensively was huge and superior to that of Magic or Bird. Don't forget that just by standing in the paint, scaring everyone away, blocking 3 shots per game and grabbing 13 boards per game he was eliminating a lot of scoring oppurtunities. Shaq also anchored the number 1 ranked defense in 2000 and he finished 2nd in defensive player of the year voting that season behind only a prime Alonzo Mourning. Even all of his free throw attempts and high percentage shots allowed his teams to set up their defense and prevent transition oppurtunities for the opposition.

Offensively, O'Neal can be compared to any player.

Look at what he did during the 3peat.

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 57.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Shaq was consistently flirting with 40/20 games in the playoffs like it was nothing. He was pretty much putting up Wilt Chamberlain numbers in the modern era in the playoffs.

Shaq's teams were also consistently in contention. He's played in 6 NBA finals, 9 conference finals, won 60+ games 3 times and 55+ 10 times.

In 1995 people love to point out Shaq(in his 3rd year at 23) getting swept by Olajuwon, but do they point out his 28.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg or 59.5 shooting %? In reality if Nick Anderson makes 1 of 4 free throws that could have been a much different series. Anderson's stunning choke job broke the young Magic and caused them to lose homecourt advantage.

Does anyone point out Shaq averaging 30.5 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.9 apg and 2.6 bpg on 61.2% shooting during the 1998 playoffs when they were swept in the WCF? Does anyone point out that Nick Van Exel shot 23.8%, Kobe shot 36.7% and Eddie Jones shot 41.2% in the WCF. The 3 combined for about as many points as O'Neal scored by himself. Yet O'Neal is blamed for getting swept with this "great supporting cast".

In 2004, O'Neal was doing his job averaging 26.6 ppg and 10.8 rpg and 63.1% shooting and just 16.6 FGA while his teammate, Kobe was jacking up contested shot after contested shot to the tune of 22.5 ppg on 38.1% shooting and 22.5 FGA.

Now people almost pretend that O'Neal's 2006 title doesn't count? Why? 20/9/2/2 on 60% shooting in under 31 mpg isn't damn good? Did his 21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.3 FG% ECF vs the DPOY, Ben Wallace and the 64 win Pistons not count? It was Avery Johnson's constant double teaming of Shaq that allowed Wade to go off like he did in the finals. Shaq didn't force anything, shot 61% averaged 14 ppg, 10 rpg and 3 apg while letting his emerging teammate shine.

I have Shaq at number 3 all time(behind Jordan and Abdul-Jabbar) and I can't see a good argument for him any higher, but I can't see a particularly good argument for him any lower than 4th(with Wilt having an argument for 3rd depending on how much you value winning).

Listen to what Pete Newell had to say about Shaq. Newell is one of the most respected people in basketball history.

"People think it's all power with Shaq, but they're wrong," says 86-year-old Pete Newell, the big-man guru who coached against Wilt and who schooled Shaq at his offseason camp in the early '90s. "Here's what I've seen [O'Neal] do in one game: Bank off the glass. Little lob hook in the paint. Step-back move on the baseline. Quick spin move when he comes out on the other side to shoot. And a neat step-through move when he was doubled or tripled. You go over the history of centers and can you remember anyone, except maybe Hakeem Olajuwon, showing all that? And Hakeem didn't have the power game. I don't like to rate players according to who's best, but none of the great centers had Shaq's moves and counters, and none of them, including Wilt, had his strength."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...06/12/insider/

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks, KD.

Shaq's 2000 season versus Wilt's 1962 season adjusted for pace

Here are his 2000 stats adjusted to 1962's record pace (Wilt's 50 ppg year):

Wilt's team had a pace factor of 129.7; Shaq's 93.3. That is a ratio of 1.4 (1.39 to be precise) to 1.

Shaq's 2000 line: 30/14/4 57%
Shaq adjusted for pace: 42/20/6

Wilt's 1962 line: 50/26/2 (all those shots but only 2 assists...) 51% shooting

How about in the playoffs?

Shaq's 2000 playoffs line: 31/15/3 57%
Shaq adjusted for pace: 43/21/4

Wilt's 1962 playoffs line: 35/27/3 47%

Shaq raised his game in the playoffs; Wilt declined considerably. His scoring plummeted by a third and his shooting percentage fell by 10 points.

How about Shaq in the finals?

Shaq in the 2000 finals: 38/17/3 61%
Adjusted for pace: 53/24/4

Adjusting for pace is not perfect but it is a way of comparing apples to apples. When you do that Wilt's regular season is better than Shaq's but it is no contest when it counted. The higher the stakes got, the better Shaq got.

[Abraham Lincoln]

'62 was Wilt's 5th best season.

[GP_20]

He should be. At peak form he was as good a player as anyone in league history.

And isn't Peak the reason you have Wilt at #1? But Shaq isn't Top 5? Double standards?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Thanks, KD.

Shaq's 2000 season versus Wilt's 1962 season adjusted for pace

Here are his 2000 stats adjusted to 1962's record pace (Wilt's 50 ppg year):

Wilt's team had a pace factor of 129.7; Shaq's 93.3. That is a ratio of 1.4 (1.39 to be precise) to 1.

Shaq's 2000 line: 30/14/4 57%
Shaq adjusted for pace: 42/20/6

Wilt's 1962 line: 50/26/2 (all those shots but only 2 assists...) 51% shooting

How about in the playoffs?

Shaq's 2000 playoffs line: 31/15/3 57%
Shaq adjusted for pace: 43/21/4

Wilt's 1962 playoffs line: 35/27/3 47%

Shaq raised his game in the playoffs; Wilt declined considerably. His scoring plummeted by a third and his shooting percentage fell by 10 points.

How about Shaq in the finals?

Shaq in the 2000 finals: 38/17/3 61%
Adjusted for pace: 53/24/4

Adjusting for pace is not perfect but it is a way of comparing apples to apples. When you do that Wilt's regular season is better than Shaq's but it is no contest when it counted. The higher the stakes got, the better Shaq got.

We must consider that Wilt played 48.5 mpg, no way he does that in the modern era. If a big man plays 40 in the modern era that's rare, hell any star player. Jordan only played about 40 mpg at the most.

Playing at Shaq's pace and minutes, Wilt would have averaged 29.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 1.4 apg, 50.6 FG%, 61.2 FT%.

Amazingly despite Shaq playing at such a slower pace and playing 43 more playoff games, Shaq has averaged 25.2 ppg compared to Wilt's 22.5 ppg.

I'm not saying Shaq is better(although I have him ranked slightly higher), but you can definitely make a case for it. But '67 is Wilt's true peak and in the discussion for greatest peak ever along with O'Neal in 2000.

[Abraham Lincoln]

And isn't Peak the reason you have Wilt at #1? But Shaq isn't Top 5? Double standards?

Yes overall as mentioned earlier he was better than anyone in league history during the spring of '67. His team humilated the Celtics & Russell off the floor to the extent that they had never really done to him. But Shaq in '00 & the spring of '01 was as effective a force relative to era. On top of that he would matchup very well with mid-60's Wilt physically. Shaq was a more potent post player and stronger in the lower body & core, while Wilt had the upper body strength advantage and displayed his strength in a more graceful manner. Wilt was indeed better on the defensive end and rebounding on both backboards. I prefer Wilt but strictly viewing peak level talent and performance, one can legitimately argue players like Jabbar, Russell, Jordan, Bird, O'Neal, Magic, & even Robertson in my opinion. No one man can inarguably be held above the rest.

I never said Shaq was not top 5.

[Big#50]

KAJ
MJ
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[Roundball_Rock]

Good question.

He's won more titles than Bird, Chamberlain and Olajuwon.
Many consider his peak to be the best ever
He's had superior longevity to Magic, Bird, Chamberlain and Russell
Best player on the only non-Bulls or Celtics 3peat ever
Won 2 scoring titles(narrowly missed 3 more(lost to Robinson by 0.5 ppg in '94, by 0.4 ppg to Jordan in '98 and 0.3 ppg to Iverson in '99). And it's important to note that if Robinson hadn't padded his stats on the last day of the season, O'Neal would have had 3.

Shaq's mix of individual dominance didn't come at the expense of the team. O'Neal is one of only 4 players to win a scoring title and championship in the same season. The other 3 are Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar and Mikan.

Shaq is also now 5th on the all time scoring list and he's led the league in FG% more times than anyone else.

It's true that O'Neal wasn't an Olajuwon or Russell type defender, but the impact he made defensively was huge and superior to that of Magic or Bird. Don't forget that just by standing in the paint, scaring everyone away, blocking 3 shots per game and grabbing 13 boards per game he was eliminating a lot of scoring oppurtunities. Shaq also anchored the number 1 ranked defense in 2000 and he finished 2nd in defensive player of the year voting that season behind only a prime Alonzo Mourning. Even all of his free throw attempts and high percentage shots allowed his teams to set up their defense and prevent transition oppurtunities for the opposition.

Offensively, O'Neal can be compared to any player.

Look at what he did during the 3peat.

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 57.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

3 seasons combined
Regular Season- 28.6 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.6 bpg, 57.5 FG%
Playoffs- 29.9 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.4 bpg, 55.2 FG%
Finals- 35.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.2 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Shaq was consistently flirting with 40/20 games in the playoffs like it was nothing. He was pretty much putting up Wilt Chamberlain numbers in the modern era in the playoffs.

Shaq's teams were also consistently in contention. He's played in 6 NBA finals, 9 conference finals, won 60+ games 3 times and 55+ 10 times.

In 1995 people love to point out Shaq(in his 3rd year at 23) getting swept by Olajuwon, but do they point out his 28.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg or 59.5 shooting %? In reality if Nick Anderson makes 1 of 4 free throws that could have been a much different series. Anderson's stunning choke job broke the young Magic and caused them to lose homecourt advantage.

Does anyone point out Shaq averaging 30.5 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.9 apg and 2.6 bpg on 61.2% shooting during the 1998 playoffs when they were swept in the WCF? Does anyone point out that Nick Van Exel shot 23.8%, Kobe shot 36.7% and Eddie Jones shot 41.2% in the WCF. The 3 combined for about as many points as O'Neal scored by himself. Yet O'Neal is blamed for getting swept with this "great supporting cast".

In 2004, O'Neal was doing his job averaging 26.6 ppg and 10.8 rpg and 63.1% shooting and just 16.6 FGA while his teammate, Kobe was jacking up contested shot after contested shot to the tune of 22.5 ppg on 38.1% shooting and 22.5 FGA.

Now people almost pretend that O'Neal's 2006 title doesn't count? Why? 20/9/2/2 on 60% shooting in under 31 mpg isn't damn good? Did his 21.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 bpg, 65.3 FG% ECF vs the DPOY, Ben Wallace and the 64 win Pistons not count? It was Avery Johnson's constant double teaming of Shaq that allowed Wade to go off like he did in the finals. Shaq didn't force anything, shot 61% averaged 14 ppg, 10 rpg and 3 apg while letting his emerging teammate shine.

I have Shaq at number 3 all time(behind Jordan and Abdul-Jabbar) and I can't see a good argument for him any higher, but I can't see a particularly good argument for him any lower than 4th(with Wilt having an argument for 3rd depending on how much you value winning).

Listen to what Pete Newell had to say about Shaq. Newell is one of the most respected people in basketball history.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...06/12/insider/

'62 was Wilt's 5th best season.

Plug in whatever season you like. Shaq is still comparable. 62' was Wilt's best statistical year. It is his 50 ppg and other stats most people point to when talking about his dominance. Dominance does not occur in a vacuum. Moving beyond stats, who was close to Shaq's level during his peak? Wilt had Russell. In terms of relative dominance Shaq was more dominant than Wilt, although statistically they are comparable and we can't penalize Wilt for playing in the same era as Russell. That said, Shaq held his own against Hakeem and outplayed Robinson, Ewing, and Mourning. He did well against Yao until he got old. Looking beyond rivals at his position, during his peak there was no real debate on who the best player in the league was. During Wilt's prime he was usually losing the MVP award to Russell.

We must consider that Wilt played 48.5 mpg, no way he does that in the modern era. If a big man plays 40 in the modern era that's rare, hell any star player. Jordan only played about 40 mpg at the most.

Great point. Plus, with advanced scouting and other coaching and defensive tools and strategies Shaq faced more sophisticated defenses than Wilt.

Amazingly despite Shaq playing at such a slower pace and playing 43 more playoff games, Shaq has averaged 25.2 ppg compared to Wilt's 22.5 ppg.

That is because Wilt's production slipped considerably in the playoffs. That has to be factored in when discussing dominance. How dominant was a player whose effectiveness could be reduced to a substantial degree in the playoffs (-25% for instance in scoring)? In not a single year did Wilt score more in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.

Another reason I used 62' is because bballreference posted the pace numbers for that year once. I don't have the pace for 67'. Let's try using average team FGA as a proxy. The ratio is 1.24 to 1.

Wilt in 67' in the regular season: 24/24/8 68%
Shaq in 00' in the regular season: 30/15/3 57%
Shaq's 00' stats adjusted: 37/19/4

Wilt in the 67' playoffs: 22/29/9 58%
Shaq in the 00' playoffs adjusted: 38/19/4 57%

Shaq raised his game; Wilt's scoring declined and his shooting percentage plummeted 10% (the same as in 62'). He did improve his rebounding and average one more assist, though. Shaq in 00' is comparable to Wilt in 67'.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

KAJ
MJ
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Kobe is not in the top 5.

[Bigsmoke]

yea he's top 5 maybe. Still cant decides who's better between him and Duncan

[MMKM]

KAJ
MJ
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

Duncan over Magic Johnson and his FIVE rings...

[Abraham Lincoln]

Plug in whatever season you like. Shaq is still comparable. 62' was Wilt's best statistical year. It is his 50 ppg and other stats most people point to when talking about his dominance. Dominance does not occur in a vacuum. Moving beyond stats, who was close to Shaq's level during his peak? Wilt had Russell. In terms of relative dominance Shaq was more dominant than Wilt, although statistically they are comparable and we can't penalize Wilt for playing in the same era as Russell. That said, Shaq held his own against Hakeem and outplayed Robinson, Ewing, and Mourning. He did well against Yao until he got old. Looking beyond rivals at his position, during his peak there was no real debate on who the best player in the league was.

That's the problem with statgeeks, you cannot directly relate statistical ppg to performance. Would you not think Greer stepping up in the playoffs had something to with Wilt's scoring in '67? The shift change at PG with Costello's injury midway through the season? Plus the numerous scoring weapons in the halfcourt like Greer, Walker, & Cunningham that were all required to be in proper sync as well? If you think his performance declined that year in the playoffs then you are horribly mistaken. Especially against centers like Russell & Thurmond.

During Wilt's prime he was usually losing the MVP award to Russell.

The same prime during which he won 3 consecutive MVP's?

[allball]

Shaq is not a better basketball player than:

Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Walt Frazier, Erving or even Kobe in his prime.

why? 95% of Shaq's points came from within 5 feet of the basket.

for his size Shaq is/was just an average rebounder.

name a memorable game in which Shaq hit the game winning shot.

of all the top 5 centers Shaq is probably the worst defender. has good block numbers but average footwork and recovery.

Shaq became a better passer later in his career but was never spectacular.

if not for a bad job of coaching by Dunleavy in the 4th quarter of the 2000 semis Shaq never sees his 1st ship.

if not for a Kings meltdown at the FT line and a last minute 3 by Horry in game 4 of the 2002 semis Shaq never plays for his 3rd.


sure Shaq dominated the post in his era but what prime HOF centers was he playing against?

Shaq is one the best in terms of offensive dominance and presence but too many holes in his skillset to be considered a top 5 player IMO.