Top 5 All-Time at each position prime wise

[G.O.A.T]

Yeah and Shaq would have score 100 more than once during Wilts days.

No, not even Kobe's 81 translates to a 100 point game in the 1962.

Wilt's feat still stands as the greatest statistical volume scoring achievement in NBA history.

[jlauber]

Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement. The record book is filled with many examples of his overwhelming INDIVDUAL accomplishments. How about the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history... .727, and .683? Or the THREE highest "perfect games" in NBA history... 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or 35 straight made FGs? Or 55 rebounds in one game? Or 41 rebounds in one post-season game? Or the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history? Or 50.4 ppg (as well as 44.8)? Or 27.0 rpg? ELEVEN rebound titles. He also has more 60+ point games, 32, than every other player who has ever played the game in NBA history...COMBINED (29.)

And for those that compare Wilt's 50 ppg to MJ's 37 ppg season...Wilt averaged his total in a league that averaged 119 ppg, while MJ's was in a league that averaged 110. AND, Wilt shot .506 from the field in a league that averaged .426. Meanwhile MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480. A case could be made that Kobe's best scoring season was better than MJ's. Kobe averaged 35.4 in a league that averaged 97 ppg, and he shot .450 in a league that averaged .454. In any case, there is simply no comparison between MJ's best scoring season, and Wilt's.

And, I think most intelligent observers would rate Wilt's '66-'67 season, as not only his best, but perhaps the greatest in NBA history.

But all of these "all-time" great discussions seem to diminish Russell's impact. Believe me, I have long railed against Russell in the Wilt vs. Russell duels, until I began watching footage of Russell. One-on-one, Wilt probably would have killed Russell. But, it is a TEAM game, and NO ONE had more of an overall impact on the game than Russell. While Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq could single-handedly take a mediocre team and make them a championship contender, Russell would take a good team, and make them great. He was not as dominant INDIVIDUALLY, but he made his teammates better...much better.

[G.O.A.T]

I have always wondered why Jerry Lucas doesn't get mentioned more often in these all-time threads, especially when the criteria is based on their prime. Other than Wilt (EIGHT TIMES), Lucas is the only player to have more than one 20-20 season (two) in his career. Not only that, but he also led the NBA in FG% one year, and had many seasons over 50%...which is really remarkable when you could argue that he was the best long-range shooter in the game at the time he played. And before anyone jumps down my throat, the term "Lucas Layup" was coined for his 25 ft, "layups." I actually witnessed him hit some 20+ shots in a row from between the circles (at least 25 ft) during a pre-game warmup at a Warrior-Knick game in the early 70's. Factor in that he even played center at times in his career, and I just have to believe that, at his BEST, he was definitely a Top-5 PF.

Here's my take on the lack of love for Lucas and some of the factors that have led to it:

-He was overshadowed in Cincinnati by Oscar amongst his own team and guys like Wilt and Russell in terms of rebounding numbers.

-Even at his peak he was a low volume scorer; usually 4th amongst the starters in points and shots per 48 minutes. Guys were averaging 25-30 all over the place and he never top 22, despite sitting fewer minutes per 48 than a nine year old on a sugar high. One argument a Lucas supporter could make is that in the modern era, with a three-point line, Lucas would likely get 3-5 more points per game based on his propensity to hoist and hit long jump shots.

-His rebounding numbers came in an era where rebounding numbers were inflated by the pace of the game. This is not his fault and many people do not understand how and why the numbers are different, but the best context to put it in I believe is as such: He finished anywhere from 3rd-5th in the NBA in rebounding (always behind Wilt and Russell) for 7 of his first 8 seasons. So yes the era inflates them about 25-35% over today's pace but that's still 12-15 per game so at the very least he was an excellent rebounder.

-His teams never won anything: The strange thing about this one is how it stuck to him and not to Oscar. I guess Big O joining Alcindor cleared his named, but why doesn't Lucas at least get some of the same leeway. Yes Lucas and Oscar won just one playoff series together in Cincy (in Jerry's rookie year) but consider the following. In '64 they lost to Russell's Celtics, in '65 Wilt and the Sixers, '66 the Celtics beat them and in '67, you guessed it, the Sixers. Two of the all-time great teams, another very good World Champion and always to one of the era's two premier stars, just like West, Baylor, Oscar and the rest of the players whose careers began in the 1960's.

All of these factors, plus the fact that he generally wasn't beloved in his playing days and rarely gets mentioned with the likes of Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Pettit and Duncan (the consensus top 5 on most lists I could find)

That speaks to two things, how good Pettit was and how much the power forward position has evolved. Guys like Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo, Dave Debusschere, Dolph Schayes and Tom Hiensohn have just fallen out of the conversation, the only other two names I here consistently around the top five are McHale and Nowitzki.

Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement. The record book is filled with many examples of his overwhelming INDIVDUAL accomplishments. How about the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history... .727, and .683? Or the THREE highest "perfect games" in NBA history... 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or 35 straight made FGs? Or 55 rebounds in one game? Or 41 rebounds in one post-season game? Or the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history? Or 50.4 ppg (as well as 44.8)? Or 27.0 rpg? ELEVEN rebound titles. He also has more 60+ point games, 32, than every other player who has ever played the game in NBA history...COMBINED (29.)

I was speaking only in terms of the statistical weight and significance of the 100 point game. I would agree it's far from his greatest achievement were the other factors and intangibles are considered.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

You mentioned Bob McAdoo. Probably one of the most under-rated players ever...especially in these "prime" discussions. I had the pleasure of actually watching that guy play live, and in the early-to-mid 70's, he was probably only second to Kareem in that period. And he had unbelieveable range for a 6-11 guy (maybe not as good as Nowitzki, but his shot was harder to defend.)

He had three straight 30+ ppg seasons, and probably averaged .520 from the field over that span.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

I wasn't disputing your 100 point game comparison to Kobe's at all. I know that you did not say it was Wilt's greatest achievement. I have read your take here many times, and I agree with you probably 90% of the time.

INTELLIGENT posters (like yourself) will look past much of the stats, and take a look at video footage that exists. For those that believe Dwight Howard is the best center in the game today...and argue that today's players are better than those of the 60's and 70's...take a look at the footage of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem that is abundant on YouTube, and tell me that Howard is more skilled, or more dominant than those three guys.

Same with the MJ argument. Many of today's "ESPN Generation" honestly believe he invented the dunk. There is ample footage available of Connie Hawkins and Dr. J that will contradict that point (and 6-6 Gus Johnson was shattering rims long before anyone else.) And, watch Oscar, and tell me that MJ was a better one-on-one player. And, I still have not seen anyone do the things with a basketball that Pistol Pete did some 40 years ago. He was a true magician with the ball. His 68 point game against the Knicks is on YouTube, and it has been estimated that it would have been an 81 point game had there been a 3pt line back then. And, how come no one else has ever duplicated Kareem's "sky-hook" which is the dealiest shot in NBA history?

In any case, NO ONE elevated his teammates like Russell (the only player that could come close would have been Magic.) And that simply has to be included in these "all-time" discussions. He did not win 11 rings by accident.

[lakers_forever]

PG: Magic

SG: MJ

SF: Larry Bird

PF: Karl Malone

C: Wilt Chamberlain


2nd team:

PG: Oscar

SG: Kobe

SF: Elgin Baylor

PF: Charles Barkley

C: Shaq or Kareem.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

You brought up some very good points about Lucas. And I have long read that the rebounding numbers of the 60's were elevated by not only more shots, but poorer shooting.

Still, I was involved in a debate about the all-time greatest rebounders in another forum, and someone used the famous "available rebound" rate to declare Rodman, as the greatest ever.

Yes, using that stat, Rodman's rate, per minute, is the highest ever. But, IMHO, it came in a era of the WORST rebounding centers in NBA history. Geez, we had GUARDs like 6-3, 170 lb. Fat Lever among the leaders.

Back in the early 70's, Tom Boerwinkle actually had a higher "rebound rate" than Wilt in one season. Well, the two met in the playoffs, and Chamberlain just CRUSHED him two years in a row. In game four of the Laker sweep of the Bulls in the '72 season, Wilt outrebounded him 31-4!

And, how about Rodman's POST-SEASON rebounding? His career rebounding regular season average was 13.1, but it drops significantly down to 9.9 in the post-season...while Russell's and Wilt's INCREASED by about two per game.

Put Russell and Wilt into the 80's and 90's...and against the MANY 7-2+" clods that permeated the league, most of whom struggled to get 10 rebounds per game (and many were around 6-8 rpg), and I suspect that they would have done quite well. Incidently, for those that argue Wilt's domination was because of his height...there has NEVER been a 7-3+" center to lead the league in rebounding. And, Kareem and Motumbo, who were 7-2, led the NBA in rebounding, with THREE COMBINED titles.

My point being that Lucas, Thurmond, Russell, and Wilt would have been among the rebounding leaders in ANY era.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Grant Hill?

[jlauber]

I wonder who would blend the best at center with an all-star team that had the greatest PF, SF, SG, and PG?

[phoenix18]

@ at these horrible "I have to have this guy here because he is a champion/whatever" list.

OP why in Jesus name do you have Tim Duncan as your number one PF? Come on son. Be honest here.

Lebron>Bird. Dont give me this crap either.

[Go Getter]

Discounting career achievements. Who are your top 5 players of All-Time at each position in terms of peak play.

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Gary Payton
5. John Stockton

Dirk/Jerry West/Gary Payton/Rick Barry shouldn't even sniff this list.

And Gary Payton but no Tiny Archibald?

[Go Getter]

PG: Magic

SG: MJ

SF: Larry Bird

PF: Karl Malone

C: Wilt Chamberlain


2nd team:

PG: Oscar

SG: Kobe

SF: Elgin Baylor

PF: Charles Barkley

C: Shaq or Kareem.

I know it's hard to compare eras but I have doubts that Baylor could do anything with LBJ [and I'm not a fan].

[Disaprine]

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

Tim Duncan was better that chuck and Karl Malone in their prime? really?

[Alhazred]

Yes, using that stat, Rodman's rate, per minute, is the highest ever. But, IMHO, it came in a era of the WORST rebounding centers in NBA history.

David Robinson, Shaquille O' Neal, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning and David Robinson are poor rebounders? Correct me if I've misread your post.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement.