Wilt Chamberlain versus ...everyone else in NBA history combined

[La Frescobaldi]

81 is more impressive

71 is more impressive than 81

[LAZERUSS]

what's the point of scoring 50 or more if you're going to lose anyways?

Interesting point...

Chamberlain scored 50+ points in four playoff games, three of which were "must-win" games, and his teams went 4-0.

Obviously the man should have shot FAR more in the post-season. Of course, his COACHES made those decisions, NOT Wilt.

BTW, only a complete idiot would claim that Wilt could not have more (MUCH more) had he been so inclined.

Just watch footage of his title-clinching game five performance in the '72 Finals, when, as a way-past-his-prime Chamberlain, and playing with one badly sprained wrist, and the other fractured, scored 24 points, on 10-14 shooting (to go along with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocked shots.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPQV1WHtsU

There is absolutely NO QUESTION that this 35 year old Wilt, a year removed from retiring, could have easily scored 40 points had he wanted to.

[SamuraiSWISH]

In the playoffs? MIA

[LAZERUSS]

In the playoffs? MIA

THE greatest post-season rebounder in NBA history. BTW, when Russell retired after the '69 season, he had averaged 24.9 rpg. At that same time, Wilt was averaging 26.3 rpg in his post-season career. Furthermore, Chamberlain out-rebounded Russell in ALL eight of their post-season series, including margins of 5, 6, and 9 rpg!

Likely THE greatest post-season shot-blocker in NBA history. Here is what we KNOW. Wilt played in 160 post-season games. In the known 80 that we have recorded data, he blocked 570 shots. The "official" all-time post-season shot-blocker is Duncan...with 545 in 223 games. And we don't have much of Wilt's early post-season career numbers, when he was likely blocking even more shots.

Scoring? A "scoring" Wilt...from his rookie season in '59-60, and thru his last scoring title season in '65-66... averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and shot .505 (in post-seasons that shot less than .420 in the same span...or about 10% higher than the post-season league eFG% average.)

Furthermore, his roster was so horrid, and with the league rules at the time, his 62-63 team didn't make playoffs...in a season in which he averaged 45 ppg on a .528 FG%.

AND, this "scoring" Wilt played in only 52 of his 160 post-season games...30 of which were against RUSSELL (or 60% of his playoff games.)! And all he could do against Russell in that same span, and in those 30 games, was average 30 ppg on a .507 FG%. Oh, and in those 52 games, he had 11 of 40+ points...or about 20% of his post-season games.

If you move to his greatest season, '66-67, his post-season CAREER averages at that time were, 67 games, 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and a .515 eFG% (in leagues that shot .420 in that span...or 10% higher than the post-season league eFG% mark.) Oh, and in those 67 games, he faced Thurmond in six games, and Russell in 35...or 41 of his playoff games!

Think about all of that for a moment. Facing two of the three greatest defensive centers of all-time (and the greatest TEAM dynasty in NBA history), Wilt averaged a 30-27-5 .515 FG% (and likely 8 bpg.) Now, give me YOUR list of other GOAT candidates who put up even one post-season SERIES with those averages. Hell, find me a GOAT who had ONE GAME with those averages.

MIA? How about CAREER post-season MUST-WIN games? Surely he choked right?

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

Guess what? His PPG ranks THIRD all-time in those MUST WIN games, at 31.1 ppg, which is just behind the leader, Lebron, who is averaging 31.9 in his post-season career must-win games, and your boy Jordan, who finished at 31.3 ppg.

Not too bad for 'MIA" is it?

RECORDS? How about this? Most 50+ point games in a MUST-WIN playoff game...with THREE. How about the other GOATs', COMBINED...ZERO. NONE of them ever had a 50+ point game in a must-win game. Oh, and Chamberlain also hung a 45 point MUST WIN FINALS game in his post-season career, as well.

How about 35-25 post-seasons? ONE...no one else is even remotely close. How about 35-20 post-seasons? TWO. No one else with even one. How about 30-20 post-seasons? FOUR. Everyone else in NBA...ZERO. How about 25-20 post-seasons? SIX. How about 20-20 post-seasons? NINE.

Mr. "MIA" also had FOUR post-season series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg. How many other players have accomplished THAT feat? And while there have been a handful...did they also average 20+ rebounds in the process? Oh, and how many other GOATs have hung a 30-30 .555 FG% series (in a post-season that shot .429)? BTW, that series was against RUSSELL.

While a "scoring" Wilt only played in ONE Finals (and against a Celtic team with EIGHT HOFers), he still hung a 29-28 .517 series (in a post-season that shot .420 BTW.) Not bad when he was SWARMED by Celtics.

In his SIX Finals, (again, only ONE of which came in his scoring prime), he outrebounded his opposing centers (ALL in the HOF BTW) in EVERY one of those series, and by as much as 13 rpg! He also outshot those six centers from the field by a combined .559 to .439 margin (oh, and he ELEVATED his rebounding and FG%'s over his regular season averages.)

I could go on...but the REALITY was, in his 29 post-season series, Wilt was the best player on his team in at least 25 of them, and likely the best player on the floor in 20-25 of them, as well.

GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

This guy averaged 48.5 minutes for a season. Take that in for a second. If his team was up by 20-30 points in the 4th he would play the whole 4th quarter just to pad his stats. Biggest stapadder of all time and it isn't even close.

The man averaged 45.8 mpg in his CAREER. Oh, and in the playoffs? How about 47.2 mpg?

And how about this example...

In his 62-63 season, he averaged 47.6 mpg, and 44.8 ppg...on a team that played in 54 games, out of 80, that were decided by single digits, and only EIGHT of which were 20+ margins (and 4-4 in those.)

Or this...

12 of his 32 60+ games came in games that were decided by single digits. His 78-43 game came in an OT game.

He had THREE 60+ point games, with a high of 73 points, against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. He had FIVE 50+ point games against RUSSELL, with a high game of 62 (and a 50 point must-win playoff game, as well.)

SEVEN games of 60+ against the Lakers in the decade of the 60's, with highs of 78 and 72 points. Too bad he got the opportunity to face them in the playoffs, though.

BTW, Chamberlain played five games in five straight nights (two of which were on the road)...and played every minute of them, and averaged a combined 49.6 ppg. Oh, and in his next four games after that...he scored 284 more points...or 71 ppg in that span. Overall, playing in that nine game stretch, with never more than one day of rest...532 points, or a 59.1 ppg average.

In the 67-68 playoffs, an playing with a similar injury to what disabled Reed in the '70 Finals, Wilt had a stretch of three playoff games in three nights, and then played a seven game series against Boston, in which he averaged 22 ppg, and 25 rpg. Oh, and he played EVERY minute of both series (and 48.5 mpg BTW.)

And in his LAST season, he played 17 playoff games, and averaged 47.1 mpg...all at age 36. Oh, and he also averaged 22.5 rpg in that span. BTW, the next best post-season since? KAJ's '77 11 game run, in which he averaged 17.3 rpg.

Of course, Chamberlain was playing nearly every minute of every game his entire career, and even long after he was interested in scoring. But, yes, he was a "stats-padder."

[Beatlezz]

[LAZERUSS]

How does this prove anything. The whole argument is that most people who played in the 60s were terrible and thus it was a weak era. Wilt on the other hand was basically the only NBA level player going up against said terrible players. How does posting the # 60 points by said terrible players disprove that?

In Wilt's 69-70 season, his COACH asked him to become a scorer again. He responded by leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%) in the first nine games. In that ninth game, Chamberlain had hung 33 points, in 28 minutes, and on 13-14 shooting from the field, when he shredded his knee.

In those nine games, he had that 33 point game; a 35 point game; a 37 point game (against 7-0 Tom Borwinkle); a 38 point game (against reigning MVP Wes Unseld); a 42 point game (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look him up); and a 43 point game (against Dierking...more on this in a moment.)

He also easily outplayed rookie KAJ in their only H2H before he shredded his knee. He outscored KAJ, 25-23; he outrebounded KAJ, 25-20; he outassisted KAJ, 5-2; he outblocked KAJ, 3-2; and he outshot KAJ from the floor, 9-14 to 9-21.

KAJ would go on to average 28.8 ppg in that regular season, and then a 35-17 .567 post-season run.

So, a 33 year old, near-prime Chamberlain, but past his peak, had a better season than a near-prime KAJ (who would PEAK in his next two seasons.)

Furthermore, KAJ played FOUR years IN the WILT-era, and 16 more seasons after that. His career HIGH game? 55 points. And, he faced several of the same centers that a prime Chamberlain had faced a few years earlier, and was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant against them, as a prime Wilt had been. Not even close.

Just the year before KAJ arrived, Wilt hung TWO 60+ point games...one a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting from the field, and the other a 60 point game on Connie Dierking. And again, in that '69-70 season, Chamberlain's high game was a 43 point game against Dierking. A prime KAJ faced Dierking on multiple occasions, and his HIGH game... 41 points.

KAJ's high game against Imhoff? 46 points. Wilt had entire SEASONS in which he averaged 50 ppg against Imhoff. Oh, and his high game... 100 points.

KAJ's high game against Willis Reed? 41 points. Chamberlain had a 12 game season against Reed in which he AVERAGED 39 ppg, including beatdowns by margins of 41-8, 46-25, 52-23, and 58-28.

KAJ's high game against Bellamy? In 24 career H2H's... 40 points (and then 39, and 33.) In a span of 20 straight games, a prime Chamberlain, going against a PEAK Bellamy, AVERAGED 48 ppg. In that span, he hung THREE games of 60+, including a 73-36 game. He was still hanging 50 point games on his years later, as well.

KAJ's HIGH game against a full-time Thurmond? 34 points. In fact, in 35 career H2H's, he had FIVE of 30+. BTW, in those 35 games, he shot a combined .447 from the field against Nate. In his greatest season, in the first round of the '72 playoffs, KAJ was outscored by Thurmond, 25 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot from the field, .437 to .405 (yes, .405.)

How about a prime Wilt against a prime (and peak) Thurmond? In a span of 13 games, from the '64-65 season, thru the '65-66 season, and into the first game of the '66-67 season, Chamberlain had SEVEN games of 30+. Included were carpet bombings by margins of 38-15 and 45-13. Oh, and in his '67 season season, covering six H2H games, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 21 ppg to 13 ppg, and outshot Nate from the field by...get this... a .633 to .320 margin. And that was a Thurmond in his greatest season, too.


Of course, we know that an old KAJ, ages 38 and 39, and covering TEN STRAIGHT games, averaged 32 ppg on a .630 FG% against Hakeem. In that span of 10 games, he had SEVEN of 30+, including games of 40, 43, and 46 points (and this was in only 37 minutes, and on 21-30 shooting.)

A 40 year old KAJ outscored a 25 year old Hakeem by a 17-16 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .563 to .403 margin in their four H2H's, as well.

Just some food for thought...

[Bless Mathews]

Wilt would be a starter in the NBA today.

[stanlove1111]

Meaningless post unless put into context. Nobody else ever played the one man game plan with the object or having one guy score 50 a game. This poster will never understand that Bball is not like baseball where everyone gets up the same amount of times with the same goal..

The only time I can remember teams playing with the goal of getting a guy a ton of points was in 1978 with Gervin and Thompson..Look how much they scored..

Wilt was one of the greatest but he was a much better player in 1967 then when he was taking a ridiculous amount of shots to score 50 a game..

Poster never will understand context..

[Marchesk]

30 point games (Finals)
Jerry West -- 31
Michael Jordan -- 23
Elgin Baylor -- 19
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 16
Shaquille O'Neal -- 16
Bob Pettit -- 14
Kobe Bryant -- 13
Rick Barry -- 8
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 8
John Havlicek -- 8
Sam Jones -- 8
George Mikan -- 7
Dwyane Wade -- 7
Lebron James -- 7
Larry Bird -- 5
Julius Erving -- 5
James Worthy -- 5
Tom Heinsohn -- 5
Cliff Hagan -- 5
Wilt Chamberlain -- 4

So, West > Jordan and Baylor > Kobe?

Now why is it that West has the most 30 point finals, when Jordan has the most 30 pt playoff games? Because West played in more finals games, and Jordan in more playoff games.

[fpliii]

Meaningless post unless put into context. Nobody else ever played the one man game plan with the object or having one guy score 50 a game. This poster will never understand that Bball is not like baseball where everyone gets up the same amount of times with the same goal..

The only time I can remember teams playing with the goal of getting a guy a ton of points was in 1978 with Gervin and Thompson..Look how much they scored..

Wilt was one of the greatest but he was a much better player in 1967 then when he was taking a ridiculous amount of shots to score 50 a game..

Poster never will understand context..

That was only the case during the 61-62 season though. It stands out from the rest. Some quotes...

From Coach McGuire:

[quote]"We aren't as good as Boston

[Marchesk]

Total Playoff Games
Kobe - 220
Mike - 179
Wilt - 160
Lebron - 158
West - 153
Baylor - 134

30 pt games every X playoff games
Mike - 1.65
West - 2.07
Baylor - 2.23
Kobe - 2.5
Lebron - 2.59
Wilt - 3.8

BUT, if we break Wilt's 160 games down, only 36 came during his prime scoring years on the Warriors. On the 76ers with a more balanced team, he played a different role and you can see that his assists, rebounding and FG% went up in the playoffs as his scoring goes down compared to his first years on the Warriors.

Prime Playoff Scoring (depending on where you draw the line):
Jordan - 35.99
Baylor - 35.68
Wilt - 34.6
West - 33.15
Kobe - 29.54
Lebron: 28.6

Baylor and West were making it to the finals every year in their scoring primes, and Wilt only got to do this once for the Golden State Warriors, and he had to face Russell (as opposed to facing him in the EDF). It would be like if Gary Payton (or a healty Moncrief Jordan's age) on the Pistons was waiting for MJ most of his career.

Wilt's playoff scoring might look a little different if he started his career in the West, or his teams had been able to win a couple of those close Game 7 series against the Celtics. The Lakers didn't have a Russell or Thurmond at center to slow Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Meaningless post unless put into context. Nobody else ever played the one man game plan with the object or having one guy score 50 a game. This poster will never understand that Bball is not like baseball where everyone gets up the same amount of times with the same goal..

The only time I can remember teams playing with the goal of getting a guy a ton of points was in 1978 with Gervin and Thompson..Look how much they scored..

Wilt was one of the greatest but he was a much better player in 1967 then when he was taking a ridiculous amount of shots to score 50 a game..

Poster never will understand context..

Chamberlain led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG% (along with 5.2 apg, and likly 8+ bpg), in his 65-66 season. BTW, that team would go on to have the best record in the league. And, as ALWAYS, if he wanted to hang a 60+ point game, he did so.

He missed one game that season, and his team was blown out by the Celtics. And in their nine other regular season games against Boston, they went 6-3. And in those regular season H2H's against Russell, he averaged 28.3 ppg and 30.7 rpg (on a .473 FG%.)

True, they were wiped out by Boston in the EDF's, 4-1...but in that series Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field. In the clinching game five defeat, he slaughtered a helpless Russell with a 46-34 game.

How did his TEAM lose that series? His teammates collectively shot .352 from the field (yes, .352 from the field!)

[LAZERUSS]

That was only the case during the 61-62 season though. It stands out from the rest. Some quotes...

From Coach McGuire:







Obviously from the last quote, Wilt was complicit in the 48 minutes thing. I think it's safe to say that he also didn't have a huge problem aiming for 50 points a night:



Wilt still has 15 (by my count) games of 60+ completely ignoring that season.

Also, regarding the second bolded statement, same thing happened with the Admiral iirc.

As always...great research, and another great post.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain was single-handedly carrying pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics, twice early in his career. And had he not been injured at the end of game two in the '60 EDF's, he likely at least gets that team to a game seven against Boston, instead of a game six two point loss. And in the '64 Finals, and with virtually no help, his team lost Russell and his SEVEN other HOF teammates, 4-1, but the last two losses were in the waning seconds...and in a series in which he owned Russell.

Without Wilt's monumental efforts in those years, his teams would have been languishing in last plac, and not even sniffing the playoffs (or even being competitive.)

[julizaver]

I think that knowledgeble posters had long enough debunked the myth that Wilt was not strong playoff performer/choked during clutch games.
There is so more evidence /even video to the contrary.

No matter how great a player is, it is not possible for a single person to carry a team singlehandlily to title when the game is played 5 by 5. And the prove is Wilt - he was the most dominant player in proffesional basketball - no question about it !!! He played 7 game series vs the best defense of his era and was guarded by the consensus best defender center in the history. His early teams lack the quality, lack the depth in bench. He changed teams, cities, teamates, coaches. He joined the worst roster in NBA in 1959 and made them instantly a title contender.

Yes he had his lows and faults, but put asside his dominance/presence and his teams are doomed.

Lakers had two of the greatest all-time players in the history of the game (Baylor and West) and they were not able to beat the Celtics team full of HOFs and their HOF coach.

And there is a list of all-time greats who won nothing, so winning "only 2 rings", in the presence of greatest ever Celtics, Knicks and Bucks rosters is not quite an underachievement for me. If there was no Wilt Celtics will be winning not 8 but 11 in row, Bucks winning 2 in a row and starting a dynasty, Jerry West goes down without ring and so on. And what about Russell be with Warriors and Wilt with Celtics ??? Do the Warriors ever stood a chance against the Celtics ?