Top 10 players IMPACT wise

[no pun intended]

How is there not a single mention about Erving? He transformed the landscape of the league, not only by being the face of the NBA-ABA merger, but also by defining the 70s decade with his flashy play. In my opinion, he's up there in the top 5 most influential players of all time.

[played0ut]

How is there not a single mention about Erving? He transformed the landscape of the league, not only by being the face of the NBA-ABA merger, but also by defining the 70s decade with his flashy play. In my opinion, he's up there in the top 5 most influential players of all time.

make a list plz i'd like to see.


And the list isn't necessarily most influential-- it's players that had the most impact in winning/losing/controlling flow of the game.

[WillC]

1) Bill Russell
2) Wilt Chamberlain
3) Michael Jordan
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6) George Mikan
7) Larry Bird
8) Lebron James
9) Magic Johnson
10) Oscar Robertson

I like your choice of players. I don't necessarily agree with the order (although we're not too far apart), but in my opinion these were the 10 greatest players ever relative to their era and, therefore, the 10 who had the biggest impact.

[Psileas]

And that's why he's not above Bill Russell on my list. But #2 is fitting IMO.

yeh, his impact wasn't as crazy as it 'could' have been. But regardless, he was the most unstoppable force in NBA for the longest time. Look at his 3rd season-- 50.4/25.7. On 48.5 MPG!

The guy (more than anyone else in NBA History) near singlehandedly brought his teams through the playoffs in ways no one else could. He changed entire playsets and NBA rules to counter him. He would dunk from the foul line to shoot free throws. They brought in goaltending calls because of him. Lol that guy's impact was insane.

And this exactly is a main reason of why I consider it insane that certain people leave him out of their top 4-5 GOAT list. I could somewhat understand it if they base so much on rings that they also adamantly believe that Russell is the GOAT or that '96-'98 Jordan was better than '88-'90 Jordan, but this usually isn't the case either.
The guy pretty much sculpted the rules of modern basketball. Of course, there's Mikan, as well, but Wilt's impact went beyond what Mikan had established, he was the last player who impacted the game at such a degree. Once Wilt played and on, no center afterwords (let alone a whole generation of centers) would be considered dominating enough to oblige officials to reset some rules, e.g: to widen the paint even more.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol there's a good explanation. During regular season he was playing against relatively shorter, unathletic players-- of course his numbers would be monstrous.

But come playoffs, when he'd play against REAL HOF talent, his numbers would go down to 'realistic' levels-- as in levels you could expect if he played against top centers in today's league.

tl;dr?

During regular seasons, imagine Shaq vs. Scalabrine.

During playoffs, where Russell and Nate came in, imagine Shaq vs. Olajuwon.

Still crazy numbers. But not ridiculously impossible numbers.

I encourage you to go thru this.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=332617

Granted, there is a ton of information there, but it basically covers Wilt's prime, up to his major knee injury in the 69-70 season. I also included not only Wilt's numbers against his HOF peers, but their numbers against each other...including the post-seasons.

A prime Wilt was just CRUSHING the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and yes, Russell. Interesting too, but Bellamy actually had more success against Russell offensively, than he did against Wilt. And Bellamy was a truly great scorer for most of the 60's, too. But he was nowhere near the dominant offensive (nor defensive) player that Wilt was. For instance, in Bellamy's rookie season, he averaged 34.7 ppg in his ten H2H's with Wilt, including a 47 point game. Wilt outscored him in nine of those ten H2H's, including all three 40+ point games that Bellamy hung on him. BTW, Bellamy also averaged 33.2 ppg against Russell that season, including games of 41 and 47 points.

Anyway...sift thru the info, and then give me your feedback.

[LAZERUSS]

And this exactly is a main reason of why I consider it insane that certain people leave him out of their top 4-5 GOAT list. I could somewhat understand it if they base so much on rings that they also adamantly believe that Russell is the GOAT or that '96-'98 Jordan was better than '88-'90 Jordan, but this usually isn't the case either.
The guy pretty much sculpted the rules of modern basketball. Of course, there's Mikan, as well, but Wilt's impact went beyond what Mikan had established, he was the last player who impacted the game at such a degree. Once Wilt played and on, no center afterwords (let alone a whole generation of centers) would be considered dominating enough to oblige officials to reset some rules, e.g: to widen the paint even more.

Psileas, I have been meaning to get your opinion on this (and maybe I should just start a new topic), but what do you think of these facts...

In Wilt's 65-66, 66-67, and 67-68 seasons, he led his team's to the best records in the league (in fact, in '67, and as you know, it was an all-time record until the '72 Lakers, and then the '96 Bulls broke it later.)

He was clearly the most dominant player in the league in those three years, and just murdered Bellamy, Russell, and Thurmond in their H2H's (well, Thurmond gave him some problems in '68.)

But here were the results of the MVP voting in those three years:

65-66:

1. Wilt 48-15-7 (1st, 2nd, and 3rd place votes)
2. West 16-20-13
3. Oscar 14-16-19
4. Russell 7-12-24
5. Lucas 2-2-1
6. Sam Jones 2-1-3


66-67:

1. Wilt 80-13-5
2. Thurmond 15-24-23
3. Russell 5-16-33
4. Oscar 3-22-12
5. Barry 2-11-9


67-68:

1. Wilt 88-21-1
2. Wilkens 26-22-20
3. Baylor 9-25-9
4. Bing 9-18-18
5. Oscar 3-22-12


I find it very suspicious that Wilt was not winning near-unanimous MVPs in those three years. And '67 was the most suspicious of the three. Chamberlain led his team to the all-time best record in the league, and slaughtered Thurmond and Russell (2-3 in the voting) in his H2H's. And think about this...in '67, it appears that there were 105 players voting. And yet, it also appears that SEVEN players left Wilt off their ballots altogether! '68 also has me shaking my head. It appears that there were 135 voters, and yet Wilt was not on the ballot, at all, of 25 voters?!

Once again, there seemed to be an "anti-Wilt" bias in the player voting, even in the years in which there was no other criteria but to vote for him.

[Prometheus]

Translation - "I made a top 10 list and left Kobe out to get some attention because i'm a lonely, miserable little guy."

dude it's like 90% of your thoughts about basketball are only for Kobe, and the other 10% is supposed to cover everything else that's ever happened. I love Kobe, but he is not a top ten player in terms of impact on the court.

Really, is that your first thought when you look at this list? I swear you probably opened it already nervous about whether Kobe was going to be on it or not. "He's making a top 10 list... DIS NIKKA BETTA HAV KOBE ON DUR!" absolutely pathetic. Such Kobetard. Much homer.

[Magic 32]

Good list, no one left out.

Amazing subtly in your trolling.

Can't you write a book about your abilities?

It's sooo smart and funny.

Please

[fpliii]

I find it very suspicious that Wilt was not winning near-unanimous MVPs in those three years. And '67 was the most suspicious of the three. Chamberlain led his team to the all-time best record in the league, and slaughtered Thurmond and Russell (2-3 in the voting) in his H2H's. And think about this...in '67, it appears that there were 105 players voting. And yet, it also appears that SEVEN players left Wilt off their ballots altogether! '68 also has me shaking my head. It appears that there were 135 voters, and yet Wilt was not on the ballot, at all, of 25 voters?!

Once again, there seemed to be an "anti-Wilt" bias in the player voting, even in the years in which there was no other criteria but to vote for him.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that players couldn't vote for their teammates. Not sure where I heard that or if it's true (if not someone can correct me), but if that's the case it would answer part of your question.

[dubeta]

glad to see OP didnt pick a 45% career shooter who chucks shots, and doesnt do much else on the court


hurts your team more than helps it

[played0ut]

Lazeruss: I've seen.

I've always thought that Wilt had more talented that Russell. He was much bigger too with 50 to 100 lbs on him plus height.

But their roles were different. Russell's role was essentially just try to hold him down and make him work harder for everything-- not necessarily to out rebound/outscored Wilt (no way he could've done that, at least consistently). And he did make it harder. His teammates would handle the scoring. He played to his strengths and didn't try to 'out ego' Wilt. And it worked. (granted he had much better teammates).

In 1967 the 76ers got a new coach who adopted team ball ('Celtic ball'). Wilt played more like Russell and their team cleanly bet the Celtics. His numbers dropped to 24/24 but his assists and Fg skyrocketed.

Essentially, I'm saying his numbers were high because aside from talent, they were playing iso ball with wilt. Once they started playing 'spurs' ball they played better and won.

An analogy would be Jordan pre triangle stats vs after. Or Duncan pre team ball vs now.

But I agree that if they just went head to head, Wilt's numbers would almost always be much bigger.

glad to see OP didnt pick a 45% career shooter who chucks shots, and doesnt do much else on the court


hurts your team more than helps it

Lol hold your horses, buddy.

Kobe is still above LeBron as greatest player of all time by overall achievements. There's a possibility but no guarantee that LeBron will overtake him.

[Soundwave]

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Olajuwon
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that players couldn't vote for their teammates. Not sure where I heard that or if it's true (if not someone can correct me), but if that's the case it would answer part of your question.

I think you may have gotten that from me. And I am not positive about it either, but I seem to recall that was a rule at one time.

Maybe you can help us with this. Can you find out the exact number of players that played each year. I'm sure some of them didn't vote or perhaps were not on rosters all season long, but it might give us some clue.

Again, looking at the total votes cast in '67, Wilt was left off of seven ballots. The 76ers only had 11 players on their roster from what I could determine, and Bob Weiss only played in six games, too.

The '68 voting would make a little more sense, since Wilt was left off of 25 ballots out of the 135 cast.

If players were allowed to vote for their teammates, then Wilt was clearly a victim of an "anti-Wilt" bias.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron is being underrated in this thread. Since he turned 21 the floor for LeBron's teams is 50 wins (or a 50 win pace in 08') and the ECSF. Any team with LeBron instantly becomes a contender. He was contending with a very weak roster in Cleveland--Mo Williams was the best teammate he had . How many players in history have had this level of impact? Miami may not win 45 games without him.

[Soundwave]

LeBron is being underrated in this thread. Since he turned 21 the floor for LeBron's teams is 50 wins (or a 50 win pace in 08') and the ECSF. Any team with LeBron instantly becomes a contender. He was contending with a very weak roster in Cleveland--Mo Williams was the best teammate he had . How many players in history have had this level of impact? Miami may not win 45 games without him.

Yet I can't help but think the Heat would have more than 2 titles the last 4 years with even a 28-30 year old Kobe in place of LeBron.

If he is that good, then 2/4 with that supporting cast simply isn't good enough (really one bounce away from being 1/4 at that).

Ditto for a 28-30 year old Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem, or Bird. They would have more than two titles if you swapped them in for LeBron in the same situation IMO.

The only reason Miami may not win 45 games next year is because of Wade's knees, but regular season wins especially in that joke of an Eastern Conference are overrated.

Why people are so impressed with that is beyond me, literally every season there is a "surprise" team that wins a good number of regular season games and then gets their ass waxed in the playoffs.

The Heat weren't even that great of a regular season team last year.

Legacy is built in the playoffs where the game's really matter.