Isiah Thomas letting Shaq know what it is! OPEN COURT

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah I'm not disputing that Shaq was full of shit on the "blocking skyhooks" part. And I'm with you on Kareem, didn't watch too much footage but am aware of his rep as a great defensive anchor. But peak Shaq is criminally underrated in that respect...he was lazy and lacked motivation for a huge chunk of his career..but at his absolute peak, when Phil really connected with him and Shaq "got it"? He was a DPOY-level defensive anchor and a legitimate game changer. I think they're on similar levels in terms of defensive impact..but while Kareem's skyhook would be indefensible for Shaq, I think the pure size, strength, power advantage Shaq has over Kareem would be just as indefensible. And I think Shaq could at the very least put a huge body on Kareem and hang with him as he's getting backed down in the post..while I think 2000 Shaq might overwhelm Kareem physically.

Uh, stay out of this topic, then... Kay, son?

[fpliii]

Shaq and Hakeem are the best two players I've seen live at their peaks (didn't start watching until the last year of his first threepeat, before an MJ fan comes in and bitches), but I'm very impressed with Kareem.

I've always looked at 77-80 as his absolute peak range, but it's really hard to look past his mobility as a younger player. He looks like an absolute monster in terms of his athleticism. Stuff you don't expect from a seven-footer. Not just open-court speed, but reaction time, lateral quickness, ability to recover, etc. All this helps a ton with defense.

I think his offensive game improved as he got older for sure, and he definitely got stronger (the guys Shaq disliked going against were generally huge players), but I think a nimble, young Kareem with the ability to stretch the floor, would be a tougher matchup than the 77-80 versions.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I'm not sure what considerable weight is, as he only added 15lbs to his frame from his rookie season to 1977. Kareem only played at 240lbs even into the mid 1980's.

Well, better to be at 240 lbs than at 225, when you're dealing with those big boys.

Kareem actually got some other moves down on the block

http://youtu.be/s_kn6kLRs5o

People who think Kareem was all about the skyhook or something, never really seen him play or only watched him in his final years...

Yea, he had the greatest scoring move in basketball history in his arsenal, but also a nice turnaround J from the post, he was very mobile and could take it to the rack or finish the break, he had great footwork and could hit you with fakes, he even hit some mid-range jumpers and was hitting FT's at higher than 70%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K32jL8oAapk&t=1m14s

[SHAQisGOAT]

I have KAJ as the GOAT but he never deserved DPOY or was on that level defensively

Made 5 all-defensive 1st teams (with elite centers in the league, and also some all-defensive 2nd).
Led the league in DWS 2 times, was 7 times top5.
3 times top3 in DRtg.
Led the league in blocks per game 4 times, was top3 9 times.
Anchored a top2 defense 4 times, and a top10 defense more than 12 times throughout his career.
...

We can go through some years from 1970-1980 (mostly 1974 and 1979, even 1980) and I would like you to tell me who would've been a better choice for DPOY than Kareem... We can even dig out some articles and whatnot.

I mean, you got some years in which he was the leader in BPG, and also at the very top in terms of DWS and DRtg, or leading top10 defenses with not much help at that... Then he was voted as all-defensive 1st at the center spot, which is many times basically the most impactful defender since centers have the "opportunity" to be more impactful on defense than any other position...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem at 39 was still dropping 40 on Hakeem and Sampson (once 46), also on Ewing... Still put up 27 PPG on 50% FG, in a series vs the twin towers.

And I'm talking about a 39 years old man, after many years of basketball, going against very athletic and young bigman, who played D... One was almost 7 foot, moved around like a perimeter player, was making all-defensive already in his 1st year and went on to become a top2 defensive center in NBA history; the other was 7'3'' with a mid-30's vertical, played PF, blocked some shots and created TO's...

That was a bad man

Good point about Kareem's peak being 1977. I would extend it to 1980, maybe even to 1982.

Yes, Kaj had bigger numbers scoring wise and pure rebounding numbers really early in his career , but I really believe Kaj's skyhook was more accurate later in his career. He was more agile early in his career, and just watching film of him shows me that Kareem had a wider variety of shots he went to in his first couple of years.

During the 80s, Kaj seemed to go to the skyhook almost 70-80% of his post ups, just based on my memory. I don't know if anyone will back me here, but Kaj's skyhook became a more devastating shot in the 80s, and possibly as early as 1977, as you say.

So when people say Kaj's peak came in the early 70s due to his higher stats, I could only add that he was more athletic during those early years, but during the early 80s, Kaj evolved to become a more mature version, with an even more devastatingly accurate skyhook, the most unstoppable shot in NBA history.

Yea, some people will just look at the raw (regular-season) stats and claim that his peak came in his earlier years...
And I'm not denying he had some beastly seasons (like his 1972 RS), but again, you look at his 1977 RS:
-he was 1st in FG% (only time in his career) and 2nd in TS%
-3rd in PPG
-2nd in RPG
-2nd in BPG
-1st in PER
-1st in OWS
-1st in DWS
-1st in WS
-3rd in DRtg
-played 82 games but didn't even reach 37 min per game, not even top10!
-unexpectedly led the team to 53 wins
...
Then in the Playoffs, with 2 of his 3 best teammates injured, he went completely wild in probably in his best ever post-season...
Over the course of 11 games: 34.6/17.7/4.1/1.7/3.5 on 60.7% FG and 72.5% FT (shooting 11 per game)
Matching up against Clifford Ray/Parish then Walton, and they were throwing everything at him as the team didn't have much more.

Like I've said, he was smarter on both ends and more experienced, the skyhook was more developed and with the left too, improved overall post-game, had put on some weight to better deal with bigger centers, was still pretty athletic, better shooter...

[fpliii]

SHAQisGOAT - How many of his seasons would you say were definitely better than his year in 74?

[SHAQisGOAT]

SHAQisGOAT - How many of his seasons would you say were definitely better than his year in 74?

His 1974 post-season is one of his top5 best. As far as the regular-season, regarding defense it's most likely his best, he was also doing a terrific job in getting wins and had a great offensive year yet again(probably just shy of his top4/5)... So yea, he only had a few years better than that.

[PHILA]

This isn't Kareem's debut, right? Which game is it?

Edit: This must be it: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...002270MIL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...910300DET.html

[julizaver]

And Wilt blocked Kareem's shot twice in a row so why couldn't Shaq occasionally?

Because of several things:

1) Wilt was better athlete, better leaper and had better timing

2) Wilt occasionally leave some space to KAJ in order to prepare better his jump and then leap as high as he could (the two block shots video and the 33 streak ending game in 1972 perfectly show how Wilt guarded Kareem - and on few occasions he almost blocked his sky hooks). Even KAJ admitted that he used hooks with higher arc against Wilt.

3) Shaq will guard Kareem closely and tightly in the paint so if KAJ receive the ball he will try to push him, but he wouldn't be able to block the sky hook if KAJ release it.