Havlicek vs Pippen

[97 bulls]

But the key is Hondo showed more ACUMEN dominating scoring than Pippen did. If u have two great all around players floor game wise, the one who is the better scorer CAN BE A TIEBREAKER! It might determine who I would choose in a discussion. In this case, it gives the edge to Hondo.

No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.

Once again, ITS NOT ABOUT FIRST OR SECOND OPTION!! It's about your actual scoring ability AND HOW YOU APPLY IT!! Duos such as Shaq-Kobe, West-Baylor, Doc-Moses, Westbrook-Durant, Wade-Bron, Big O-Lew, and Magic-Kareem featured two alpha kind of scorers.

Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?

The WHOLE WORLD knew it too! If one guy was deemed "second option", everybody knew they were really an alpha. Pippen was never considered that kind of option. Not hating JUST THE FACTS!! I still consider him a great and revolutionary player.

Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?

In terms of MVP's, Shaq and Kobe ONLY WON ONE!! THE LOGO OF THE LEAGUE Jerry West NEVER won an MVP! So who cares if Hondo never won an MVP. He had enough other qualities OVER Pippen to take this argument. I do think its TELLING that Pippen has six rings BUT YET isn't regarded a top 20 GOAT player. Once again not dissing, but guys like Barkley WHO NEVER won a ring are rated ahead of Pippen routinely on a GOAT list. Why is that? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME!!

You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

[houston]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

[97 bulls]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

Yep. But on ISH, context is only viable when it helps an agenda. Right Biz?

[bizil]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

Most of Hondo's best years were BEFORE the guys like Doc, Thompson, and Gervin were in the ABA. Those guys didn't enter pro basketball until the 70's. Hondo's rookie year was 62-63. So Hondo was MUCH OLDER!! SO NO Hondo didn't benefit from that. The guys on his level or BETTER wing talent wise were still in the NBA for most of his prime years. Even if those guys were in the NBA, the Doctor is the only one I would take over Hondo.

[Marchesk]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

When the Celtics won 68 games in 72/73, Hondo led the team in scoring and assists while being third in rebounding. They ended up losing a 7 game series to the champion Knicks team in the ECF.

The year before, the Celtics won 56 games with Hondo leading in scoring and assists, and being second in rebounding. They also lost in the ECF to the Knicks.

Back in 65/66 for the Celtics 8th title in a row, Hondo was 2nd in scoring to Sam Jones, third in rebounding and fourth in assists. That was on 30.6 minutes a game. In the finals, he was second in scoring, rebounding and assists.

Of course in 69, He loses out to West for the FMVP despite the Celtics winning and him leading in scoring, second in assists and rebounding.

And then there was the 74 finals where the Celtics win the first championship sans Russell, and Hondo wins FMVP leading the team in scoring, third in rebounding and second in assists, and first in steals. That season Hondo lead the team in scoring and assists. So what you stated is false.

Show me where Pippen was doing that. Hondo played with two league MVPs, so that's not an excuse (saying that Pippen had to play second fiddle where Hondo didn't).

[Marchesk]

Hondo benefited from an era where all the ABA had all the best wing talent. Main reason I'll take Pippen due to the fact Pip was a better playmaker than Hondo. Hondo best seasons the celtics sucked.

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?

[bizil]

No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.


Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?


Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?



You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

I'm ALWAYS CONSISTENT in my arguments!! U say all this shit about Hondo BUT YET he made all NBA first or second team 11 TIMES! And was a Finals MVP! It's not about being the best player on your team all the time. It's about YOUR ACTUAL SKILLS AND ABILITY!! Dr. J was the 2nd best player behind Moses Malone. But GUESS WHAT! He was still the 2nd best SF in the world!!

In my opinion, Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I would rather have him as my first option. I don't wanna hear about rules, pace, and all this shit!

And u talk about Magic? When did Pip EVER drop 42 points in the Finals as a rookie? If u know the game of basketball U KNOW Magic smokes Pippen in alpha dog level ability!! And Pippen over Barkley! LMAO!! Barkley ranks EASILY HIGHER on a GOAT list over Pippen!! And Barkley doesn't even have ANY RINGS!! And I"m aware that a GOAT is an opinion. Just like MVP AWARDS TOO!! U always bring up MVPs, but those are OPINIONS TOO! And regardless on a list, most hardcore basketball fans KNOW Barkley was a greater player than Pippen.

[bizil]

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?

Exactly!! I found that hilarious when I read it. The guys like Doc, Gervin, and Thompson were much younger. In Hondo's rookie year, Doc was only like 12 or 13 years old! The guys like Doc, Gervin, and DT were only in their early to mid 20's when the leagues were merged. Hondo was riding off into the HOF by that point.

[bizil]

When the Celtics won 68 games in 72/73, Hondo led the team in scoring and assists while being third in rebounding. They ended up losing a 7 game series to the champion Knicks team in the ECF.

The year before, the Celtics won 56 games with Hondo leading in scoring and assists, and being second in rebounding. They also lost in the ECF to the Knicks.

Back in 65/66 for the Celtics 8th title in a row, Hondo was 2nd in scoring to Sam Jones, third in rebounding and fourth in assists. That was on 30.6 minutes a game. In the finals, he was second in scoring, rebounding and assists.

Of course in 69, He loses out to West for the FMVP despite the Celtics winning and him leading in scoring, second in assists and rebounding.

And then there was the 74 finals where the Celtics win the first championship sans Russell, and Hondo wins FMVP leading the team in scoring, third in rebounding and second in assists, and first in steals. That season Hondo lead the team in scoring and assists. So what you stated is false.

Show me where Pippen was doing that. Hondo played with two league MVPs, so that's not an excuse (saying that Pippen had to play second fiddle where Hondo didn't).

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.

[bizil]

No he didn't. He played in a different league. The tempo was faster. Players played more minutes. Its simple math. Give Pippen more minutes, and the opportunity to take more shots, and his scoring numbers are gonna skyrocket.


Because they didn't play in an offense that stifles a players ability to score like the triangle. Remember why Jackson implemented the system, he did it in an effort to keep everyone involved. And its funny that you call Magic an "alpha", how many scoring explosions did he have?


Because he played next to Michael Jordan, in an offense dedicated to getting everyone involved, in a league that didn't take as many shots. If your gonna take statistics at face value then you must feel that the Bulls that won 72 games are the best ever because at face value, they had the best win percentage ever right?



You're missing the point. I dont see how Hondo could've been considered the best player on his team when Cowens ROUTINELY (not once or twice) ROUTINELY finished ahead of him in MVP voting. I've explained this to you a million times bro. The top 25? Is based solely on opinion. I wouldn't take Barkley over Pippen because even though Barkley was more talented, he was lazy on defense, a cancer, and didn't take winning serious. And to this day, I can tell he still doesn't get it. He still doesn't see why Bob Knight cut him, believes he never won because, his teams weren't good enough, and why hes looked at the way he is in NBA circles.

Can you please be consistent in your argument. And mind you, im not disagrei with your opinion, I disagree with your logic.

U love bringing up the Triangle! Don't u realize Kobe and Shaq dominated in the triangle!! AND IT WAS APPARENT that Kobe was a MUCH MORE DANGEROUS second option than Pippen ever was! So your triangle argument doesn't hold weight. Just accept the fact that Pip was a very good scorer. BUT NEVER A GREAT ONE!!

[Roundball_Rock]

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.

Hondo was a better scorer and shooter; Pippen was the better playmaker/passer, defender and athlete. Like I said earlier in the thread, they were very similar players with similar careers and resumes. There isn't much of a difference between the two overall or in specific areas since both were great all-around players. Hondo is slightly more accomplished than Pip and hence slightly higher on most GOAT lists but in an all-time draft Pip would go ahead of Hondo.

[97 bulls]

I'm ALWAYS CONSISTENT in my arguments!! U say all this shit about Hondo BUT YET he made all NBA first or second team 11 TIMES!

Right. Because Dr. J and Rick Barry were in the ABA. Hell he would've split the All-NBA award with George Gervin and George Mcginnis.

And was a Finals MVP! It's not about being the best player on your team all the time. It's about YOUR ACTUAL SKILLS AND ABILITY!! Dr. J was the 2nd best player behind Moses Malone. But GUESS WHAT! He was still the 2nd best SF in the world!!

True.

In my opinion, Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I would rather have him as my first option. I don't wanna hear about rules, pace, and all this shit!

Well you're going to. Notice how you don't want to discuss circumstances etc when it doesn't fit your gagenda. Ill ask this question again, you obviously must feel the 96 Bulls are the greatest single season team ever right? Because statistically, they were. BE CONSISTENT. Dont apply circumstances, context, and situation.

And u talk about Magic? When did Pip EVER drop 42 points in the Finals as a rookie?

When did Magic ever repeat that performance as far as scoring?

And Pippen over Barkley! LMAO!! Barkley ranks EASILY HIGHER on a GOAT list over Pippen!! And Barkley doesn't even have ANY RINGS!! And I"m aware that a GOAT is an opinion. Just like MVP AWARDS TOO!! U always bring up MVPs, but those are OPINIONS TOO! And regardless on a list, most hardcore basketball fans KNOW Barkley was a greater player than Pippen.

Do YOU feel Barkley was better because you feel that way? Or because of what the consensus*suggests?

I personally believe that Barkely was more talented than Pip, but he had too much baggage. I mean, would you take a beautiful woman who you know has killed her last three husbands based solely on looks? I wouldn't

[97 bulls]

Well said! Most basketball experts would tell u Hondo was a better scorer than Pippen. I figured that was obvious in general, but some people love debating that.

I disagree with your reasoning. I dont think Hondo is that much of a better scorer thN Pippen. Now if we were to just look solely at numbers? Sure. But if we peel back the onion? Its a lot closer than you want it to be.

[97 bulls]

U love bringing up the Triangle! Don't u realize Kobe and Shaq dominated in the triangle!! AND IT WAS APPARENT that Kobe was a MUCH MORE DANGEROUS second option than Pippen ever was! So your triangle argument doesn't hold weight. Just accept the fact that Pip was a very good scorer. BUT NEVER A GREAT ONE!!

What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

[Roundball_Rock]

Regarding Kobe being a "much more dangerous" second option than Pippen, that is true--in theory. In practice Kobe went 24-29 without Shaq from 2000-2004 (Shaq was 25-6 without Kobe during the same period); Pippen went 51-21 without Jordan in 94' (Jordan went 24-11 without Pippen in 98'--so not a massive difference like with Shaq and Kobe). Pippen was a better leader than young Kobe and that offset 2001-2004 Kobe being a better player than 1991-1998 Pippen.