ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1970 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

I had Guerin with the next group because he did not technically retire until 1970-71, but that's because he was player coach. He was done as a regular by 1967 so ill encomienda the Cousy Clause (picturing Santa throwing behind the back gift passes) and include him here with his contemporaries.

[WillC]

Tom Heinsohn: One of the best forwards of his time and a great offensive player. He has the right mixture of statistics, accolades and team success to make the Hall of Fame, despite not necessarily being on a par with some others in terms of individual talent.

Sam Jones: I agree with the assertion that, on another team, he might have put up bigger numbers and be remembered as a bigger star. That said, he was hugely influential to those 1960s Celtics championship teams.

Bull Russell: I suppose he scrapes in.

Cliff Hagan: He played multiple positions with varying levels of success but, once he found his niche, he was a very talented offensive player in the pros.

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards

I want to vote for Tom Gola but, if I did so, it would be based more so on his phenomenal college career (one of the best ever). As a pro, he was very good but not Hall of Fame calibre.

I'd also like to vote for Jack Twyman but I don't have enough votes and I think Yardley was very similar but arguably more significant.

[L.Kizzle]

I had guerib with the next group because he did not technically retire until 1970-71, but that's because he was player coach. He was done as a regular by 1967 so ill encomienda the Cousy Clause (picturing Santa throwing behind the back gift passes) and include him here with his contemporaries.

He'll have a better shpt making it this go around. Because that 75 group will be stacked!

[G.O.A.T]

My Ballot will Include

Bill Russell and Sam Jones locks as far as I am concerned. Jones was the third best player to play with Russell behind Cousy and Havlicek, they too have been or will be locks.

I'm going to vote for Heinsohn, though I originally did not plan too. Our worst elected players so far (Macauley, Sharman and Stokes) are on the same or a lower level than Heinsohn in my eyes. Tom was a great scorer for his team. He had the all the moves that were most useful to scoring in his era. On other teams his weaknesses as a defender and ball handler may have been exposed, but on the Celtics he was in a position to thrive and did.

Also going to vote for Cliff Hagan based on the same reasoning. I think Hagan was a better player than Heinsohn overall, though Tommy had a slightly better career, but Hagan has one quality that will carry a lot of weight with me throughout the project. He was a big time playoff performer. In 1958 he led the playoffs in scoring (27.7) and field goal percentage as the Hawks won the title. Pettit had 50 in game six, but for the playoffs overall, Hagan was the standout. He led the playoffs in scoring again in 1959 (28.5 ppg). In total from 1957-1961 the Hawks made four finals appearances and in over 50 playoff games total Hagan averaged 24-11-3 while raising his field goal percentage from the regular season.

Going to continue to push for Bob Davies real hard. A big part of this project is building a consensus. I would ask those of you that haven't voted yet or didn't vote for Davies how we can justify having Ed Maccauley (less all-NBA selections, never an MVP, sixth man on title team) in our Hall and not Davies. To run down the Davies resume once more;

-1947 NBL MVP (in a league where George Mikan was scoring Champ)
-All-NBL first team twice in three years
-All-NBA first team four times in first four years, second team in fifth
NBA season.
-Considered top point guard of his era without a doubt until Cousy came along
-Was first to utilize behind the back dribbling and passing into his fundamental game
-One of 10 players selected to NBA's 25th anniversary team in 1972 (Macauley and Stokes were not, every player who was, besides Davies, has been voted inor will be this round)
-Team Success with Royals: 1946 NBL Champions, 1951 NBA Champions. 1947 and 1948 NBL runners-up. Eliminated by Lakers (eventual Champs) in '49, '50 and '52.

Also going to continue voting for Leroy Edwards (three straight MVP's, three straight scoring titles, five straight NBL finals, back-to-back titles, best player on 1939 World Pro Basketball Championship runners-up)

And Charles Tarzan Cooper and Reece Goose Tatum, the key players for the Rens and Globetrotters respectively during their reigns as Pro basketball's best teams.

Yardley, Johnston, Gola, Guerin, Rodgers and Twyman just don't cut it for me. I want Macauley to remain the worst player we've voted in.

[MP.Trey]

My Ballot will Include

Bill Russell and Sam Jones locks as far as I am concerned. Jones was the third best player to play with Russell behind Cousy and Havlicek, they too have been or will be locks.

I'm going to vote for Heinsohn, though I originally did not plan too. Our worst elected players so far (Macauley, Sharman and Stokes) are on the same or a lower level than Heinsohn in my eyes. Tom was a great scorer for his team. He had the all the moves that were most useful to scoring in his era. On other teams his weaknesses as a defender and ball handler may have been exposed, but on the Celtics he was in a position to thrive and did.

Also going to vote for Cliff Hagan based on the same reasoning. I think Hagan was a better player than Heinsohn overall, though Tommy had a slightly better career, but Hagan has one quality that will carry a lot of weight with me throughout the project. He was a big time playoff performer. In 1958 he led the playoffs in scoring (27.7) and field goal percentage as the Hawks won the title. Pettit had 50 in game six, but for the playoffs overall, Hagan was the standout. He led the playoffs in scoring again in 1959 (28.5 ppg). In total from 1957-1961 the Hawks made four finals appearances and in over 50 playoff games total Hagan averaged 24-11-3 while raising his field goal percentage from the regular season.

Going to continue to push for Bob Davies real hard. A big part of this project is building a consensus. I would ask those of you that haven't voted yet or didn't vote for Davies how we can justify having Ed Maccauley (less all-NBA selections, never an MVP, sixth man on title team) in our Hall and not Davies. To run down the Davies resume once more;

-1947 NBL MVP (in a league where George Mikan was scoring Champ)
-All-NBL first team twice in three years
-All-NBA first team four times in first four years, second team in fifth
NBA season.
-Considered top point guard of his era without a doubt until Cousy came along
-Was first to utilize behind the back dribbling and passing into his fundamental game
-One of 10 players selected to NBA's 25th anniversary team in 1972 (Macauley and Stokes were not, every player who was, besides Davies, has been voted inor will be this round)
-Team Success with Royals: 1946 NBL Champions, 1951 NBA Champions. 1947 and 1948 NBL runners-up. Eliminated by Lakers (eventual Champs) in '49, '50 and '52.

Also going to continue voting for Leroy Edwards (three straight MVP's, three straight scoring titles, five straight NBL finals, back-to-back titles, best player on 1939 World Pro Basketball Championship runners-up)

And Charles Tarzan Cooper and Reece Goose Tatum, the key players for the Rens and Globetrotters respectively during their reigns as Pro basketball's best teams.

Yardley, Johnston, Gola, Guerin, Rodgers and Twyman just don't cut it for me. I want Macauley to remain the worst player we've voted in.

Good post GOAT. I'll admit I may have overrated MaCauley, since his death a couple years ago, I had looked into him and like what I saw, solid numbers across the board, amazing efficiency considering, MVP of the first ever All-Star Game, played in the first seven ASG's, 3 time 1st teamer, etc. But I will agree he is not better than a lot of players still not yet to be voted in.

I'm struggling on who to vote for my tenth choice between Tarzan Cooper, Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. If you had to choose only
one of them, which one would it be? Tarzan? I know you've been campaigning for him from the beginning.

Also, what arguments do you have against Gola & Twyman? Those two were debatable for me, but if I were to drop any two for those last three I'm debating on, I think it'd be them.

[G.O.A.T]

Good post GOAT. I'll admit I may have overrated MaCauley, since his death a couple years ago, I had looked into him and like what I saw, solid numbers across the board, amazing efficiency considering, MVP of the first ever All-Star Game, played in the first seven ASG's, 3 time 1st teamer, etc. But I will agree he is not better than a lot of players still not yet to be voted in.

Thanks Trey. I agree with you on Macauley's offensive numbers looking great, but when you consider that he was the Celtics center and how their rebounding and defense were the teams downfalls and those are the responsibility primarily of a center (especially in the 50's) it limits the level I can put him on.

I'm struggling on who to vote for my tenth choice between Tarzan Cooper, Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. If you had to choose only
one of them, which one would it be? Tarzan? I know you've been campaigning for him from the beginning.

I have a soft spot for the Rens. I meet John Issacs years ago and he blew me away, made me very interested in their story. I've read everything I can find written about that team and those players and I am convinced they were the the closest thing we've seen to a Dynasty pre-NBA. Cooper made them go by most accounts during their most dominant period.

Edwards and Tatum are also great choices though. I think all three NEED to in by the time we finish the Honorable Mention round. If not they are locks as pioneers. Vote for the guy you believe in the most or the argument you find most persuasive. Looks like they'll all be around for another round at least, so you might get to vote for all of them before this is over.

Also, what arguments do you have against Gola & Twyman? Those two were debatable for me, but if I were to drop any two for those last three I'm debating on, I think it'd be them.

I love Gola, but he never developed a good scoring game in the NBA despite being a great scorer in college. He did everything else extremley well, but being the best passing/rebounding/defensive wing player just means your best at doing the things that other positions dominate. Wings are typically scorers, that's where they seem to have the most value. In the playoffs Gola (though he always seemed to be playing through injuries) shot 36, 33, 41, 21 and 26 percent from the field (on few shots albeit) He was never a sub-40% shooter during the regular season. This drop off hurt his teams (three with Wilt) because they needed more balanced scoring in the postseason.

Twyman put up great numbers on bad teams. That scares me as a precedent. I don't want World B. Free or Stephon Marbury types in the conversation and adding Twyman opens that kind of door. Twyman I believe is overrated these days because of how great a Man he was and what he did for Maurice Stokes. He's barely a HOFer by current HOF standards. Our goal is to make a more exclusive club and distinguish between all-time greats and guys who had great moments/seasons etc.

[WillC]

I tend to agree with you regarding Jack Twyman. He was certainly a talented scorer and an All-Star calibre player, but those distinctions aren't necessarily enough for the Hall of Fame. I agree that his reputation is (rightfully) helped by his relationship with the man in my avatar, as well as his broadcasting career after his playing days were over.

I need to dig out some old quotes about Ed Macauley. I think he's a better choice for our Hall of Fame. Perhaps a lack of team success (when he was the team leader) hurts his stock, but he was highly regarded by his peers.

Maurice Stokes' short career makes him somewhat of an anomaly in our Hall of Fame. However, during those three years, he was an absolute beast. I'd far rather have him in our HoF than, say, Earl Lloyd. The first black star of the League is surely more deserving than the first black player.

[fpliii]

So, this is the first thread for which I feel comfortable casting a ballot (and since I was asked to join, I'm more than happy to give it a shot; apologies in advance for any ignorance on my part).

Preliminaries:

1) Lakers fan, minor rooting interest in the Knicks.
2) Will be 28 in October, started watching in 92-93.
3) Detailing my biases:

High on: defense, big men, versatility
Low on: gunners, ball-dominant players in general

4) In favor of a smaller hall rather than a larger hall.
5) As part of the RealGM project, my main criteria when evaluating players are:

• ability to impact the game (in terms of affecting scoring margin, which in the long term correlates well with winning)
• ability to translate into today's game
• watching as much tape as possible, reading first-hand accounts, looking at impact-based metrics (RAPM, with/without you splits, relative team ORtg/DRtg trends in the season and playoffs, etc.)...I don't value box score production that much; obviously with regards to this project, the second will be the most helpful (EDIT: I meant the second of these three meaning "reading first-hand accounts", I deleted the space after the third bullet in case it was confusing).

My initial thoughts on the guys up for voting:

Embry - Cincy was brutal defensively, and center play was a big reason why Wilt/Russell's teams got by the Royals. That being said, he's maybe the GOAT screen-setter, and he played well offensively with Oscar. (unlikely selection)

Gola - I'm actually pretty high on him. It seems Goal might've been one of (if not the) premier wing defenders for some time in his career. Good size and versatility. (improbable selection)

Guerin - I haven't done enough research on him TBH (so I'll skim Tall Tales & From Set Shot to Slam Dunk to see if there's anything useful on him), it seems he liked to shoot the ball a good deal though. From what I can tell, in his prime as seemingly the offensive anchor for the Knicks (57-58 through 62-63), his teams offenses were +2.9, +2.8, +1.9, -0.2, -2.4, -2.4. Only one playoff appearance during that span. (unlikely selection)

Hagan - Great scorer (playoffs points leader twice, including in the year they won it all). Seems he elevated his game in the playoffs. Only 5 seasons above 30mpg though (one at 29.6 and another over 30 in the first season of the ABA), so his prime is a concern. (improbable selection)

Heinsohn - Had a great baseline hook and jumper, Russ called him maybe the most physically talented forward ever in Go Up For Glory (1965). Great range, and the perfect PF to slot alongside Russell. Solid rebounder. Not a very long career. (warrants consideration)

Jones (K.C.) - So I just finished The Dandy Dons (about the USF teams), and am a bit high on him at the moment. Other than Russell, maybe the best defender on those Celtics teams (and the only one who seemed to have a legitimate impact on their relative DRtgs outside of Russ). Short career, and only 4 seasons of 30+ minutes. Maybe the GOAT defender. (improbable selection)

Jones (Sam) - Great clutch player and shooter in general. He and Havlicek (HM: Bailey Howell) really gave those Celtics teams some offensive firepower during the last few years of the dynasty. If we're looking to be selective though, we can't call him a lock. (likely selection)

Kerr - Great passer, but only played for three great defenses: 54-55, 55-56 (Red Rocha seemed to be their best defensive big man), and 61-62 (the second of Swede Halbrook's two years in the league, both with the Nats...from the two Syracuse we dumped, Halbrook was blocking a ton of shots). Very durable, and smart/team player. (unlikely selection)

LaRusso - Very good positional defender, but those Lakers defenses weren't noteworthy, and big man depth was a big part of why Boston destroyed them in the Finals time and time again. Two very good defensive seasons with the Warriors, but they had a GOAT-level defender in Nate. (unlikely selection)

Rodgers - Tremendous passer and the best passer Wilt had ever seen. Haven't heard. Even with Wilt though, those Warriors teams were better defensively than they were on offense. His teams afterwards weren't either, except for the Bucks during Alcindor's rookie season. Not a very good shooter. (improbable selection)

Russell - One of two strong GOAT candidates, and the best player ever IMO. (lock)

Twyman - Scored a ton of points, but his teams were poor offensively before Oscar arrived. Cincy didn't drop off too much when his role lessened and retired. (unlikely selection)

Right now, my votes are for Bill Russell and Sam Jones. If I decide to include anybody else, I'll post again.

[MP.Trey]

GOAT, I edited my original post.

I took out Jack Twyman (I see your point about good numbers/bad teams) and added Goose Tatum & Leroy Edwards. Just so it doesn't go missed.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm going to vote only the deserving, instead of at least 10 candidates.

Embry was a great wide body but not quite a first ballot hall of famer.

Heinsohn just an inefficient chucker who lucked into the right situation. He was a bully on the boards though.

KC Jones was an incompetent shooter but a hustler who did the dirty work: rebound, dive for loose balls and play killer defense. Since there are usually 10 to 20 of them for each great player I don't vote for them.

Sam Jones on the other hand is a near-lock. A solid rebounder and decent passer, Jones was the great bank shot artist who used screens better than anyone in the history of the game. Yes better than Miller or Allen largely because he played without a 3 point line. More importantly, Jones stepped it up during the playoffs and demanded the pressure shots every time. 10 titles, second only to Russell.

Bill Russell should be self explanatory. Not only was he the most storied winner in all pro sports he was also the greatest rebounder and shotblocker of his time. On top of that he was also the most dedicated to winning.

I believe I voted for Neil Johnston in the previous round, so I'll vote for him again.

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Embry, Wayne - nicknamed the Wall. Solid defensive center who peaked as 19-12 guy over three years. 6x all-star. He had an outside shot for me but ultimately he's not a HOFer. No All-NBA selection and won his only title in Boston as an irrelevant scrub. Short peak and also 5x all-star only not 6x.

Gola, Tom - Best all-around player of the 1950's. Top rebounder, defender and playmaker at his position. Third best player on '56 Champs. I don't see it. 3rd option on one title team, good but not great all-around player, only one 2nd team selection for his whole career.

Guerin, Richie - Dynamic all-around guard with great size for his era. 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA second team; Peaked at 30-6-7. Tough to decide. On one hand a great peak, solid 6-7 year prime. On the other hand completely irrelevant in the postseason both individually and team-wise. Will have to think about it.

Hagan, Cliff - Elite playoff performer on late 50's-early sixties Hawks. Averaged 23-10-4 for his prime. 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team HOF player. His 1958 playoff run was just dominating on the way to a Hawks title. Before the finals he was better than Pettit. In 1959 he was again unstoppable and he shot insane FG% for his era as a SF no less and he was a great rebounder.

Heinsohn, Tom - Top scorer for the Celtics from 1960-1963, eight titles in nine seasons. 6x all-star, 4x all-nba second team HOF but not by a lot based on his level of play. Still he contributed heavily to a few title teams.

Jones, K.C. - Top defensive guard for Celtics from 1962-1966. Eight titles in nine seasons. Nope. Role player.

Jones, Sam - Top scorer for Celtics from 1964-1967. 10 titles in 12 years. 5x all-star, 3x all-nba second team No need to explain.

Kerr, Red - Great passing center and famously beloved teammate. Third best player on '55 Champs, 3x all-star. No.

LaRusso, Rudy - Oustanding all-around forward who was third best player on 1960's Lakers. 18-10 guy during prime as defensive stopper. 4x all-star No. Just one 2nd team, never among leaders in any major category.

Rodgers, Guy - Top notch point guard during early-mid sixties. Led league in assists twice. 4x all-star. No although I've given him consideration because of his playmaking.

Russell, Bill - 11 Titles in 13 Years, 5 MVP's, best defensive player ever. No need to explain.

Twyman, Jack - First non-center to average 30 ppg in a seasons (1959-60) 6x all-star, 2x all-nba second team Another tough call like Richie Guerin. I'm leaning towards nominating him.


Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous classes

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies - won MVP, led a team to a title, probably the greatest player other than Mikan in the 50's and the guy seen as Cousy's main rival at guard; stats suck but 4x 1st selection
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Neil Johnston - NBA champ, 4x 1st team, 3 scoring titles, 3 FG% titles, 1 rebounding title, really a great big man of that era
George Yardley - unlike last thread where I considered him I decided to dump Yardley not really considering him; he's a worse version of Richie Guerin it seems
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards - after reading some posts above he's a lock
Clyde Lovellette - seems woefully underrated back then with just 4 all-star games. Enforcer of the era who instilled fear in his opponents and played physical defense.


I'm leaving the possibility of still adding Richie Guerin.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm not voting for Embry, but to say a center not making an All-NBA team in the 60s is one of the reasons he will not getting voted in is not fair.

You have only 2 spots which were taken by GOAT candidates in Russell and Chamberlain.

Guerin, Twyman and Yardley were all tough choices. It seems one of these guys will get in.

[dankok8]

I'm not voting for Embry, but to say a center not making an All-NBA team in the 60s is one of the reasons he will not getting voted in is not fair.

You have only 2 spots which were taken by GOAT candidates in Russell and Chamberlain.

Guerin, Twyman and Yardley were all tough choices. It seems one of these guys will get in.

I agree about Embry. That totally escaped me. Heck the great Walt Bellamy never made an All-NBA team either.

But I'm a bit shocked at the lack of love for Neil Johnston. NBA champ, 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% leader, 1 rebounding title, led league in WS for 5 consecutive years. Honestly it seems hard to not vote him in.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree about Embry. That totally escaped me. Heck the great Walt Bellamy never made an All-NBA team either.

But I'm a bit shocked at the lack of love for Neil Johnston. NBA champ, 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% leader, 1 rebounding title, led league in WS for 5 consecutive years. Honestly it seems hard to not vote him in.

Johnston had such a short peak/prime. Only dominating post-Mikan and pre-Russell.

I can't remember where I read it from, but in a game vs. Celtics, Russell blocked his hook shot (one of Neil's go-to moves) I wanna say 8 straight times. And Johnston was never the same again.

[kshutts1]

Twyman put up great numbers on bad teams. That scares me as a precedent. I don't want World B. Free or Stephon Marbury types in the conversation and adding Twyman opens that kind of door. Twyman I believe is overrated these days because of how great a Man he was and what he did for Maurice Stokes. He's barely a HOFer by current HOF standards. Our goal is to make a more exclusive club and distinguish between all-time greats and guys who had great moments/seasons etc.

I can understand where you're coming from, but in some situations it's difficult to hold the team's lack of success against a single individual. Not to mention "bad team" is a relative term.

Granted, I don't want Marbury in the Hall either (though I may vote for WBF) but perhaps an analogy that I would more closely align myself to would be Ricky Davis. Someone that put up really good, or even great, stats on a bad team because they were the only option, as opposed to Marbury (though again, I agree he should not make it) who was legitimately talented.