Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

[dankok8]

While I don't have the complete breakdown, game-by-game, I now have the totals for Chamberlain in their six regular season H2H's in 66-67.

Thanks to nbastats.net, we know that Wilt faced the Warriors in all nine regular season games in 66-67, while Nate only played in six (more on that in a moment.) And, fortunately, we have the complete totals for Wilt's three games in which Nate ducked him.

Those three games were played on 3/2, 3/14, and 3/16:

On 3/2: Wilt scored 24 points, on 8-20 from the field, with 38 rebounds, and 13 assists.

On 3/14: Wilt scored 21 points, on 9-13 from the field, with 25 rebounds, and 9 assists.

On 3/16: Wilt scored 16 points, on 6-18 from the field, with 20 rebounds, and 6 assists.

Totals: 61 points, 23-51 from the field, 83 rebounds, and 28 assists.


OK, in the book Season of the Sixers, Wilt's season totals are listed against each team.


Versus the Warriors, in his nine games:

186 points, 233 rebounds, 79 assists, and 73-130 from the field.


So, in his six H2H's with Nate:

125 points, 150 rebounds, 51 assists, and 50-79 from the field.

Or, 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and get this... a [COLOR="DarkRed"].633 FG%[/COLOR] against Thurmond.


Here were their known numbers from those six H2H's:

11/4/66: Wilt with 13 FGM, 30 points, 26 rebounds, 13 assists, and 12 blocks (Season of the Sixers.) Nate with 13 points.

11/24/66: Wilt 10-16, 27 pts, 31 rebs, 7 ast. Nate 11 pts, 16 rebs.

12/22: Wilt 6-12, 14 pts, 22 rebs, 8 ast. Nate 9 pts, 25 rebs.

2/2/67: Wilt 7-17, 16 pts, 26 rebs, 6 ast, 5 blk. Nate 16 pts, 23 rebs.

2/4/67: Wilt 10 FGM, 23 pts, 19 rebs, 8 ast. Nate with 21 pts, 29 rebs.

2/7/67: Wilt 4 FGM, 15 pts, 26 rebs, 9 ast. Nate with 9 pts, 26 rebs.

In the three H2H games in which we have Wilt's FG/FGA, he went 23-45, which means that in the three we don't, he shot, get this... 27-34, or a .794 FG% from the floor.


Factor in that Chamberlain just annihilated Thurmond in the '67 Finals, and this season was perhaps an even greater domination of Thurmond that his 65-66 season (when he just shelled Nate by a staggering margin.)

BTW, Nate almost always had a case of "Wiltitis" in each of his seasons, as well. It seems like he was always missing H2H games against Chamberlain. But how about this 66-67 season.

Nate missed games with Wilt on 3/2, 3/14, and 3/16, ...BUT, he played in other games on 3/10, 3/11, 3/13, 3/17 and 3/18. Hmmm...

Ok kudos to you! I'll assume this info is all true...

That would make Wilt's 66-67 season by far his best season against Nate. However 20.8 ppg even on 63.3% shooting isn't an amazing scoring performance. Shaq shelled Mutombo for 33 ppg and 60% shooting just to put things in perspective. Now that classifies as domination not outscoring someone by 3.5 ppg like Wilt in the Finals...

Cool...so it seems like prime Wilt "slightly" outplayed Thurmond. Decent, halfway impressive.

(Am I doing it right?)

LOL mocking me are we?

Wilt clearly dominated more in the regular season than the finals.

[LAZERUSS]

As I stated earlier, Lynch has Wilt's numbers vs every team in that 66-67 season.

For now, I will just give you his FG/FGA vs each team, (9 games against each.):

Baltimore: .........113-151... .74.8%
Cincinnati: ........105-151 ....69.5%
Los Angeles: .....101-133 ....75.9%
Chicago: ............94-118 ... 79.7%
New York: ..........83-117 ... 70.0%
St. Louis: ...........80-117....68.4%
San Francisco: ....73-130....56.2% (again... 50-79 against Nate, or .633.)
Boston................67-122....54.9
Detroit................69-111....62.2%


Totals: ............785-1150...68.3%

[LAZERUSS]

Ok kudos to you! I'll assume this info is all true...

That would make Wilt's 66-67 season by far his best season against Nate. However 20.8 ppg even on 63.3% shooting isn't an amazing scoring performance. Shaq shelled Mutombo for 33 ppg and 60% shooting just to put things in perspective. Now that classifies as domination not outscoring someone by 3.5 ppg like Wilt in the Finals...



LOL mocking me are we?

Wilt clearly dominated more in the regular season than the finals.

I am still not sure what Chamberlain shot against Thurmond in 65-66. Obviously, as we now know, using the TWO game's that we, out of their NINE H2H's that season, as some kind of guide has been trashed. We do know that he routinely shelled Thurmond for 30+ points, and KAJ never came close to what Chamberlain carpet-bombed Nate with. And he was KILLING Nate in scoring. Take away the one game in which Thurmond outscored Wilt, 30-15, and Wilt would have held an eight game margin of 242-115, or 30.1 ppg to 14.4 ppg.

As for Shaq-Mutombo...Dikembe also averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq. You will NEVER find an opposing center who had a series close to that against Wilt. In fact, in his 29 post-season series, I could only find TWO in which his starting opposing center shot over 50%. One, in the 63-64 WDF's, Zelmo Beaty shot .521. However, Chamberlain not only outshot Zelmo, .559 to .521, he outscored him, per game, 38.6 to 14.3 ppg. And Beaty would go on to be a multiple All-Star in his career. The other was in the '72 Finals, when Jerry Lucas averaged 20.0 ppg on a .500 FG%. However, after the first half of game one, in which he shot 9-11, he only shot 37-81 (.457) the rest of the series. For those that actually were lucky enough to have seen Lucas play, he was Kevin Love long before Love was. For Chamberlain to defend Lucas, who had 25 ft. range, and still block 7.4 shots, as well as grab 23.2 rpg in that series (and averaged 19 ppg on .600 shooting, too) was an amazing testament to Wilt's incredible athleticism, even at age 35.

In any case, a prime "scoring" Wilt dominated Nate far more than a prime KAJ ever did, and we know that a 38-39 year old KAJ would go and crush the Hakeem in 10 straight H2H games with a 33 ppg .621 FG% mark. A 39 year old KAJ also had a game against Ewing in which he outscored him, 40-9, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.

And keep in mind that a 69-73 Nate held Kareem to .440 shooting in their 39 H2H games, too. From what we know, Chamberlain probably shot well over 50% against Nate, (and likely even in his scoring seasons.)

[julizaver]

And keep in mind that a 69-73 Nate held Kareem to .440 shooting in their 39 H2H games, too. From what we know, Chamberlain probably shot well over 50% against Nate, (and likely even in his scoring seasons.)

Maybe you haven't seen my earlier post. Taken into consideration your 66-67 calculation I could repost:

How Nate shot vs Russell, Kareem and Wilt ?

vs Russell - 19,6 ppg on 0.409
vs Kareem - 18.6 ppg on 0.413
vs Wilt - 16.3 ppg on 0.382

And how the others shot against him ?

Kareem vs Nate - 24.76 ppg on 0.447
Wilt vs Nate - 14.84 ppg on 0.548
Russell vs Nate - 11.59 ppg on 4.34

The data covers the 1965-1973 period. The data for Wilt vs Nate and Russell vs Nate is still incomplete (but I have the majority of the games data).

[dankok8]

I am still not sure what Chamberlain shot against Thurmond in 65-66. Obviously, as we now know, using the TWO game's that we, out of their NINE H2H's that season, as some kind of guide has been trashed. We do know that he routinely shelled Thurmond for 30+ points, and KAJ never came close to what Chamberlain carpet-bombed Nate with. And he was KILLING Nate in scoring. Take away the one game in which Thurmond outscored Wilt, 30-15, and Wilt would have held an eight game margin of 242-115, or 30.1 ppg to 14.4 ppg.

As for Shaq-Mutombo...Dikembe also averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq. You will NEVER find an opposing center who had a series close to that against Wilt. In fact, in his 29 post-season series, I could only find TWO in which his starting opposing center shot over 50%. One, in the 63-64 WDF's, Zelmo Beaty shot .521. However, Chamberlain not only outshot Zelmo, .559 to .521, he outscored him, per game, 38.6 to 14.3 ppg. And Beaty would go on to be a multiple All-Star in his career. The other was in the '72 Finals, when Jerry Lucas averaged 20.0 ppg on a .500 FG%. However, after the first half of game one, in which he shot 9-11, he only shot 37-81 (.457) the rest of the series. For those that actually were lucky enough to have seen Lucas play, he was Kevin Love long before Love was. For Chamberlain to defend Lucas, who had 25 ft. range, and still block 7.4 shots, as well as grab 23.2 rpg in that series (and averaged 19 ppg on .600 shooting, too) was an amazing testament to Wilt's incredible athleticism, even at age 35.

In any case, a prime "scoring" Wilt dominated Nate far more than a prime KAJ ever did, and we know that a 38-39 year old KAJ would go and crush the Hakeem in 10 straight H2H games with a 33 ppg .621 FG% mark. A 39 year old KAJ also had a game against Ewing in which he outscored him, 40-9, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.

And keep in mind that a 69-73 Nate held Kareem to .440 shooting in their 39 H2H games, too. From what we know, Chamberlain probably shot well over 50% against Nate, (and likely even in his scoring seasons.)

Kareem "dominated" Nate just as much as Wilt.

Wilt vs Nate

64-65: 26.7 ppg on 50.0% shooting
65-66: 28.6 ppg on ? shooting (46.3% in 2 available games)
66-67: 20.8 ppg on 63.3% shooting

Kareem vs Nate

70-71: 26.6 ppg on 48.4% shooting
71-72: 24.0 ppg on 44.1% shooting
72-73: 25.8 ppg on 48.8% shooting
73-74: 24.2 ppg on 57.1% shooting

That's right in the same ballpark... And in '71 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the postseason.

Kareem: 27.8 ppg, 15.4 rpg on 48.6 %FG/52.8 %TS
Nate: 17.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg on 37.1 %FG/41.6 %TS

[julizaver]

Kareem "dominated" Nate just as much as Wilt.

Wilt vs Nate

64-65: 26.7 ppg on 50.0% shooting
65-66: 28.6 ppg on ? shooting (46.3% in 2 available games)
66-67: 20.8 ppg on 63.3% shooting

Kareem vs Nate

70-71: 26.6 ppg on 48.4% shooting
71-72: 24.0 ppg on 44.1% shooting
72-73: 25.8 ppg on 48.8% shooting
73-74: 24.2 ppg on 57.1% shooting

That's right in the same ballpark... And in '71 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the postseason.

Kareem: 27.8 ppg, 15.4 rpg on 48.6 %FG/52.8 %TS
Nate: 17.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg on 37.1 %FG/41.6 %TS

Maybe it is better to include post season data also - Wilt played against Nate in '67 finals and Kareem played in 11 post season games vs Nate. It will be more representative.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem "dominated" Nate just as much as Wilt.

Wilt vs Nate

64-65: 26.7 ppg on 50.0% shooting
65-66: 28.6 ppg on ? shooting (46.3% in 2 available games)
66-67: 20.8 ppg on 63.3% shooting

Kareem vs Nate

70-71: 26.6 ppg on 48.4% shooting
71-72: 24.0 ppg on 44.1% shooting
72-73: 25.8 ppg on 48.8% shooting
73-74: 24.2 ppg on 57.1% shooting

That's right in the same ballpark... And in '71 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the postseason.

Kareem: 27.8 ppg, 15.4 rpg on 48.6 %FG/52.8 %TS
Nate: 17.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg on 37.1 %FG/41.6 %TS

First of all, you simply can't conclude that Wilt shot .463 against Nate in his NINE H2H games in 65-66, based on two games (one of which Wilt shot 17-32 and scored 45 points.) You also claimed that he shot .518 in the known three H2H's against Nate in 66-67. And you were right, but we now KNOW (at least if ALL of the data on nbastats.net is correct) that Chamberlain shot .794 in the three games in which we didn't have his FG%'s.

Wilt POUNDED Thurmond with games of 33-10, 33-17, 38-15 and 45-13 in that 65-66 season. Find me a season in which KAJ did that too Nate.

Furthermore, Nate was on a severe decline in 73-74. WAY down from his 72-73 season (his last quality season.) He missed 20 games, and was never the same. His numbers dropped dramatically from 72-73. And then, in 74-75 he was just a shell.

And, as Julizaver posted, you failed to include the 71-72 and 72-73 playoff games in your above totals, when KAJ shot .428 and .405 in those two series, which covered 11 games.

Nope, KAJ never approached the domination that a prime Wilt just leveled Thurmond with, including a Nate in his peak season.

So, no more of that nonsense.

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe you haven't seen my earlier post. Taken into consideration your 66-67 calculation I could repost:

How Nate shot vs Russell, Kareem and Wilt ?

vs Russell - 19,6 ppg on 0.409
vs Kareem - 18.6 ppg on 0.413
vs Wilt - 16.3 ppg on 0.382

And how the others shot against him ?

Kareem vs Nate - 24.76 ppg on 0.447
Wilt vs Nate - 14.84 ppg on 0.548
Russell vs Nate - 11.59 ppg on 4.34

The data covers the 1965-1973 period. The data for Wilt vs Nate and Russell vs Nate is still incomplete (but I have the majority of the games data).

Do you have the book "the Season of the 76ers" by Wayne Lynch, by any chance? I would like someone here who does, confirm the numbers that he posted on page 259. As I stated, if the stats that nbastats.net have are correct for the known six games H2H's, then Chamberlain went 50-79 in the other three H2H's with Nate. I wish we had those three H2H's. As I posted earlier, the WORST he could have shot in their first meeting that season, was 13-20 (which would have meant that he shot 4-4 and 10-10 in the two other missing games) to go along with 26 rebounds, 13 assists, and the "dozen" blocked shots that Lynch mentioned.

Anyway, if you haven't found them by now, I doubt they exist, but it would nice to have more full stat-lines from Wilt and Nate's H2H's in the 65-66 season (when Chamberlain just annihilated Nate.) Here again, nbastats.net only has two of their nine H2H's, and one of them was an 8-22 game, which seems to be on the extreme side. IMHO, and considering his other high scoring games, I suspect that he easily shot over 50% against Nate that season.

And perhaps some other's here, like PHILA, CavsFan, Fpliii, or Psileas may have a copy of that book. It would be nice to have verification from someone other than myself.

[LAZERUSS]

That's right in the same ballpark... And in '71 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the postseason.

Kareem: 27.8 ppg, 15.4 rpg on 48.6 %FG/52.8 %TS
Nate: 17.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg on 37.1 %FG/41.6 %TS

Here were KAJ's and Nate's stats in their FIVE game series.

KAJ outscored Nate by margins of 25-19, 26-18, 33-23, 32-17, and 23-11 in those five games.

Now, I know you mentioned post-season, but we never got to see a "scoring" Wilt against Nate in the post-season (of course, Wilt was even more dominant against Nate in the '67 Finals, if you factor in assists, blocks, and...FG%, in which he ousthot Nate by a .560 to .343 margin.)

But, lets' use their NINE H2H's in the 65-66 regular season, shall we?

Nate outscored Wilt in their very first encounter, by an unbelieveable margin of 30-15 (as we will see, it had to have been an anomaly)...

then in their next eight H2H games, Wilt outscored Nate by margins of:

22-13, 26-9, 25-20, 38-15, 23-18, 45-13, 33-17, and 30-10.

Kareem's highest margin over Nate in the '71 playoffs was +15 (32-17.) In their 65-66 H2H's, Wilt had margins of +16, +17, +20, +23, and get this... +32.

I didn't include the rebounding numbers, because all we have for Nate is five of their nine games. Nor did I include any FG% because all we have are two of Wilt's (games of 8-22 and 17-32), and none of Nate's.

Again, a peak KAJ was nowhere near as dominant as a prime Chamberlain was against Nate.

[Psileas]

I do have the book, and the numbers you posted at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=321988 are what it mentions.
So, 73-130 vs SF. Total numbers: 186 pts, 233 rebs, 79 asts in 411 minutes (9 games).

[Psileas]

PS. Irrelevant, but noteworthy: That season, he was averaging a triple-double vs Detroit (20.1-22.4-10.4), although he was only playing 37.7 mpg against the Pistons.

[LAZERUSS]

I do have the book, and the numbers you posted at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=321988 are what it mentions.
So, 73-130 vs SF. Total numbers: 186 pts, 233 rebs, 79 asts in 411 minutes (9 games).

Thanks!

And if the stats are correct at nbastats.net (and I have no reason to doubt them), he shot 23-51 in the three games in which Nate missed. So, that means he shot 50-79 against Thurmond, or .633!

Thanks again.

[LAZERUSS]

PS. Irrelevant, but noteworthy: That season, he was averaging a triple-double vs Detroit (20.1-22.4-10.4), although he was only playing 37.7 mpg against the Pistons.

The Wilt-bashers would claim that Detroit had his number that season.

As a sidenote, of which you are aware, but maybe some other's are not...Chamberlain had a 20-20-20 game against Detroit the very next season (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists...and nbastats has an estimated 14 blocks.)

It's just too bad we don't have more full stat-lines from the Wilt-Nate H2H's in the 65-66 season. From what we do have, it was already brutal.

Oh, and another side-note, and this one I got from you...

In that 65-66 season, he had three straight games in the middle of the season, in which he faced Nate twice, and then Russell...

In the first one against Nate, he outscored Thurmond 45-13 (Nate did outrebound him, 26-21); then he put up a 33-30 game against Nate's 17-19 game; and then he pounded Russell with a 31-40 game to Russell's 11-17. Just an incredible three-game run.

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe you haven't seen my earlier post. Taken into consideration your 66-67 calculation I could repost:

How Nate shot vs Russell, Kareem and Wilt ?

vs Russell - 19,6 ppg on 0.409
vs Kareem - 18.6 ppg on 0.413
vs Wilt - 16.3 ppg on 0.382

And how the others shot against him ?

Kareem vs Nate - 24.76 ppg on 0.447
Wilt vs Nate - 14.84 ppg on 0.548
Russell vs Nate - 11.59 ppg on 4.34

The data covers the 1965-1973 period. The data for Wilt vs Nate and Russell vs Nate is still incomplete (but I have the majority of the games data).

If you have time, you should create a new topic with those H2H's...

[julizaver]

If you have time, you should create a new topic with those H2H's...

I could think about it. First I want to obtain some additional data, because it is incomplete at the moment.
I am making some researches, but will see how it goes.