Worst player with whom you can win, and best player with whom you can't?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Best player you can't win with is someone like the Pistol

I think I agree with that (like I've stated before)... but again, it's all hypotheticals here.

Let's say that in 1977, Maravich (at his best) had teammates like:
PG - Van Lier / Goodrich(actual teammate, but relatively healthy like in 1978)
SG - Pistol
SF - Billy Knight
PF - Bobby Jones
C - Swen Nater
And with Larry Brown coaching them, doing his best to make Pete work within the team's interests and flow of the game...
I wouldn't call that a super stacked roster but it's clearly very well built around Maravich with everything working to his strengths/weaknesses, and a fine coach at the helm, say they have a good bench too.
Definitely capable of going all the way that season, although Portland was an extremely tough matchup, even Philly... Brown's Nuggets took the Blazers to 6 games that year, with not as good of an overall team as that (on paper ofc, given that they have a similar bench).

So, again, questions like these are always tough to answer.

[T_L_P]

No, he wasn't.

Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Walton (for 1-2 years)
Hakeem
Ewing
Howard (2009-11/12)
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett

Some are arguable, but all have a case and at least half are definitely over him.

Eh, I'm taking Wallace over all those except Russell and maybe Hakeem (the non-gambling, fundamental one).

Jabbar doesn't really belong in the above group imo. Garnett wasn't an alltime great interior defender, which is by far the most important part of the court to defend. Not gonna act like I know enough about Wilt to mention him. Robinson, Duncan and Walton are certainly close though.

I mean, look at some of these RAPM numbers:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2002.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2003.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2004.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2005.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html

Top 5 every year, number 1 in 06, even with a negative rating on offense. Just a complete game-changer on the other end of the floor.

[smoovegittar]

1.) Russell Westbrook
2.) Dwight Howard.

took me about 5 seconds...

[Milbuck]

1.) Russell Westbrook
2.) Dwight Howard.

took me about 5 seconds...

You can definitely build a championship team around 2010-11 Dwight Howard. It's a shame he was brought down by the back injury and his minimal skill progress...but back then with the right coach and right team, he could do it. SVG was a great coach for him but the team wasn't maximized in 2011 They definitely could've done better. Swap 2010-11 Dwight Howard in for Marc Gasol on the 2012-13 WCF Grizzlies..they definitely win it all imo, and he's the best player. You'd probably have to ditch one or two of their solid role players to make salaries work, but the difference between peak Dwight and 2013 Marc is enough to compensate. Marc made 14 million in 2013..Dwight 19 million. So maybe drop Keyon Dooling and Austin Daye, combined 6 million for 2012-13.

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

[Fire Colangelo]

You can definitely build a championship team around 2010-11 Dwight Howard. It's a shame he was brought down by the back injury and his minimal skill progress...but back then with the right coach and right team, he could do it. SVG was a great coach for him but the team wasn't maximized in 2011 They definitely could've done better. Swap 2010-11 Dwight Howard in for Marc Gasol on the 2012-13 WCF Grizzlies..they definitely win it all imo, and he's the best player. You'd probably have to ditch one or two of their solid role players to make salaries work, but the difference between peak Dwight and 2013 Marc is enough to compensate. Marc made 14 million in 2013..Dwight 19 million. So maybe drop Keyon Dooling and Austin Daye, combined 6 million for 2012-13.

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

Not enough 3 point shooting in that team to give Dwight enough room in the post IMO. Randolph and Gasol worked so well because Gasol usually does his work in the high post while Randolph bangs in the low post. Don't really see how Randolph + Dwight would work seeing how Dwight has no range. Not to mention Tony Allen and Prince are not exactly know as premier 3 point shooters (Prince isn't bad, but obviously not as deadly as someone like Rashard/Turk).

They'd be great defensively tho, but very limited offensively.

OT, I think maybe someone like Vince Carter would struggle winning a Championship as the best player on the team.

[ImKobe]

Mike Conley / Jerryd Bayless / Tony Wroten
Tony Allen / Wayne Ellington / Tony Wroten
Tayshaun Prince / Quincy Pondexter
Zach Randolph / Darrell Arthur / Marreese Speights
Dwight Howard / Ed Davis / Marreese Speights

With Dwight at 2011 MVP-level form? That defense would be filthy, like all-time great filthy. That team is knocking off the Spurs and beating Miami.

No, just no. That offense is terrible. On paper it's like the 04 Pistons, but they're not winning with today's rules. Z-BO and Dwight together on O? Dwight is not a great high-post player on offense like Marc is, he can't create much for others. We saw how he struggled alongside Pau. Prince and Allen are horrible shooters, Z-Bo can knock down the mid-range jumper. All the other team would have to do is pack the paint and force them to shoot jump shots. Spurs would knock them off quite easily.

[Sportal]

Would Shaq be an answer to these?

[iznogood]

The worst player you could win with has to be Tyson Chandler. He actually makes Perkins look decent.

[Doranku]

Would Shaq be an answer to these?

No, because Shaq is (obviously) someone you can win with, and he certainly isn't the worst player you can win with.

[stanlove1111]

I think I agree with that (like I've stated before)... but again, it's all hypotheticals here.

Let's say that in 1977, Maravich (at his best) had teammates like:
PG - Van Lier / Goodrich(actual teammate, but relatively healthy like in 1978)
SG - Pistol
SF - Billy Knight
PF - Bobby Jones
C - Swen Nater
And with Larry Brown coaching them, doing his best to make Pete work within the team's interests and flow of the game...
I wouldn't call that a super stacked roster but it's clearly very well built around Maravich with everything working to his strengths/weaknesses, and a fine coach at the helm, say they have a good bench too.
Definitely capable of going all the way that season, although Portland was an extremely tough matchup, even Philly... Brown's Nuggets took the Blazers to 6 games that year, with not as good of an overall team as that (on paper ofc, given that they have a similar bench).

So, again, questions like these are always tough to answer.

Maravich proved during his entire career and that includes college that he added very little vague to a basketball team.. Sometimes his teams would have been better without him. he is the first one that should be taken off the 50 greatest players list.

[ArbitraryWater]

This question is too broad IMO....

If we would actually do down the years? okay..

But come on, we could build a team around Howard RIGHT NOW, that would win it all....

Rose
Harden
Kawhi
Aldridge/Dirk
Howard

...

[T_L_P]

This question is too broad IMO....

If we would actually do down the years? okay..

But come on, we could build a team around Howard RIGHT NOW, that would win it all....

Rose
Harden
Kawhi
Aldridge/Dirk
Howard

...

And that's an unbelievably stacked team. We're imagining it's like 00 Lakers with [insert player] replacing Shaq or maybe something a little better.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Maravich proved during his entire career and that includes college that he added very little vague to a basketball team.. Sometimes his teams would have been better without him. he is the first one that should be taken off the 50 greatest players list.

I agree, that's why I mentioned him in the 1st place. Dude had crazy talent but his intangibles were the other way around.

Pete was treated as a star since early on; he really honed his skills to the max since a child and "regular" basketball got "boring" to him so he was too overflashy. In college he was then coached by his father who let him do whatever he wanted, that didn't help as he never understood the concept of playing as a team, and he was clueless many times on D. All of the previous took a lot from his terrific talent.

The Hawks were actually better before they drafted him, and they had some really good players there. Tbh, he also didn't fit there in many "ways", though.

Pete was a player who needed a team to be upmost built around him, to make his most impact felt... He finally had that in New Orleans but his teammates weren't good, period. I mean, in his best year (1977) his best teammates were players like Jim McElroy, EC Coleman, Nate Williams, Otto Moore... Most people never even heard of those guys, including many people that know their basketball history.
Read this before about that season...

You can say this was Maravich's peak season, as he led the league in scoring with 31.1 PPG, was 3rd in MVP voting and made the All-NBA 1st team. He was also 12th, in the league, in APG and top5 in RPG amongst guards. He scored 40 or more points 13 times as the Jazz went 10-3, and he scored 30 or more points 39 times as the Jazz went 25-14. He scored 36.4 PPG on 34 wins and 26.6 on 39 losses. In New Orleans, he scored 34.2 PPG.

That year he had just a great season, and you can't really put the blame on him, he was doing a lot.

He changed his ways a bit during those later years also, but then when they were starting to click and getting better (addition of Truck Robinson and Slick Watts, old but healthy Goodrich, Rich Kelley coming into his own...) Pete got injured and never was the same afterwards. They were on a 9-game winning streak before he went down.

[Sportal]

No, because Shaq is (obviously) someone you can win with, and he certainly isn't the worst player you can win with.

Was this the case with the Magic? What if Shaq didn't have Kobe or Wade?

[RidonKs]

u can win with anybody u can lose with anybody thats why teams have twelve guys dumb thread