Kareem Abdul-Jabbar V.S. Nate Thurmond H2H game by game

[Psileas]

Great!

Thanks to your effort, then the only game missed is this one, do you happen to keep KAJ's stats too?


Thu, Mar 7, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors L 95 97 KAJ: ?? Thurmond left the game 2nd quarter due to reinjury his left arch

I have him at 27/17 in that game.

[PHILA]

Didn't Russell have a longer wingspan than Kareem? And we KNOW that he was a much better leaper (Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) I don't see Kareem giving Russell nearly as many problems as Chamberlain did.

Indeed, apparently KAJ held a ball high above his head with one hand and Russell without raising on his toes was able to place his entire palm over the ball. However Nate Thurmond probably had the longest wingspan of all the top defensive centers.

[jlauber]

So I guess all my effort of putting up those stats and stories and quotes means nothing.. huh..

Thurmond didn't get the credits that he should've deserved, even I put up the stats comparison KAJ's regular and some real example against other centers like Cowens averaged 44pts shooting 60% and bombed a 54pts game, but when facing Thurmond only averaged 20+, etc.

If you're talking about pounds and strength, some players have more pounds than Thurmond or stronger, e.g. Unseld, Wilt, etc.. but none of them can limit KAJ at that level...

I don't think it's fair to judge that Thurmond is better than Akeem directly simply just look at the stats, I need to put it to the context, how they matchups, the rules, etc, but if a 39 years old KAJ can constantly pour multiple 30+ or even 40+ on the Twin Towers and rookie Ewing more than once.., people start to lean to think that way..

Alex, I guess a 50-60 game "sample" is not big enough. Nor given the fact that Reed and Wilt...AND Kareem, himself, said that no one played them tougher defensively.

These "hypothetical" matchups have been debated for 40 years. But obviously, when a STATISTICALLY PRIME Kareem STRUGGLES to shoot much over 40% for 50 games against Thurmond, with very few 30+ point games, but could routinely pour in 30-40 point games against Hakeem...at age 39...I think that provides substantial evidence of just who the better defensive center was.

[alexandreben]

Originally Posted by jlauber
Didn't Russell have a longer wingspan than Kareem? And we KNOW that he was a much better leaper (Russell was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) I don't see Kareem giving Russell nearly as many problems as Chamberlain did.

Indeed, apparently KAJ held a ball high above his head with one hand and Russell without raising on his toes was able to place his entire palm over the ball. However Nate Thurmond probably had the longest wingspan of all the top defensive centers.

I read this somewhere too, but I forgot where...

do you happen to have their wingspan figures, can you post it please?

[jlauber]

I read this somewhere too, but I forgot where...

do you happen to have their wingspan figures, can you post it please?

I read it somewhere too, but in any case, the only player that could get up higher, in terms of an extended vertical leap than Russell, was Wilt. Both were reportedly capable of touching the top of the backboard. And while Russell had an edge in high-jump, Wilt's height and wingspan enabled him to outleap Russell.

Thurmond had a remarkable wingspan, too, but he was not nearly the leaper than Russell or Wilt were. He was a great combination of both, though. And it appears that only Wilt could put up some huge games on him. Unfortunately, Wilt's "scoring" seasons ended in '67, so there were only a handful of games in Wilt's prime against Thurmond.

Having said that, however, in that '67 season, when Hannum asked his team to pass inside to Wilt, in the second half of a game between the two, Chamberlain poured in 24 points (30 in all), with 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks. That was a PRIME Wilt, and it illustrates my point that Wilt could easily have scored 40 ppg in that '67 season (and probably on over 60% shooting.) IMHO, that was the most dominant season ever, by anyone.

[alexandreben]

Alex, I guess a 50-60 game "sample" is not big enough. Nor given the fact that Reed and Wilt...AND Kareem, himself, said that no one played them tougher defensively.

These "hypothetical" matchups have been debated for 40 years. But obviously, when a STATISTICALLY PRIME Kareem STRUGGLES to shoot much over 40% for 50 games against Thurmond, with very few 30+ point games, but could routinely pour in 30-40 point games against Hakeem...at age 39...I think that provides substantial evidence of just who the better defensive center was.

Not to mention that's a "two knee surgery within three years" Thurmond whom Kareem battled with..

do we have any full footage of a prime Thurmond against KAJ?

[alexandreben]

I read it somewhere too, but in any case, the only player that could get up higher, in terms of an extended vertical leap than Russell, was Wilt.

Wilt talked about Thurmond's top of the reach, even longer than Wilt himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDd7jM4zYs&t=0m47s

[jlauber]

As great a defensive center as Thurmond was, and he was probably number three all-time, ...Wilt and Russell were the two best ever. Russell made his team's defense overwhelming, and Wilt was close. Think about this...Alex posted Thurmond's terrific games against Kareem in '72 and '73...and yet, Wilt was first team all-defense in both of those years. In fact, had their been a DPOY in '72, Chamberlain most certainly would have won it.

The entire defensive philosophy of the '72 (and '73) Lakers, was to funnel opposing players directly into Wilt. And while we don't have the actual blocked shot numbers, the majority of opinion now backs Wilt as the greatest shot-blocker of all-time.

So, Wilt was able to completely shut-down high-powered offensive centers...AND, dominate the paint against other opponents. There is some spectacular footage of Chamberlain's blocks out there, but in one, there is some taken from a Bucks-Lakers game in which Wilt blocks a Dandridge shot, an Oscar drive at the rim, and two of Kareem's shots (a sky-hook, and a reverse.)

And once again, while Russell and Thurmond did a solid job of "limiting" a prime Wilt (although neither could come close to shutting him down)...very few acknowledge that Chamberlain dramatically limited THEIR offense, as well.


As far as Thurmond's historical ranking. Having read this thread, I have come to rethink Nate's place in history. I always knew that he was a great player, but after reading this topic, I simply have to move him up much higher....especially among the great centers. The problem with Thurmond, though, is two-fold. One, he was often injured. And two, he has no rings, no MVPs, only one Finals appearance, and no statistical crowns. HOWEVER, he also played in the era of the greatest centers in NBA history. He went up against Hayes, Unseld, Cowens, Lanier, Bellamy, Reed, Lucas, McAdoo, Russell, Kareem, and Wilt...ALL in the HOF. Furthermore, his only "sin" was that he faced Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Sixers/Lakers, Reed's HOF-laden Knicks, and Kareem's Bucks. The fact was, he might be the 6th greatest center of all-time...but unfortunately for him, he was only the fourth best center of his own era.

[ThaRegul8r]

And once again, while Russell and Thurmond did a solid job of "limiting" a prime Wilt (although neither could come close to shutting him down)...very few acknowledge that Chamberlain dramatically limited THEIR offense, as well.

Chamberlain's offense >>> Russell and Thurmond's offense. I would use Chamberlain on Kareem in the '72 WCF. Chamberlain's defense against another elite offensive center is a better example.

As far as Thurmond's historical ranking. Having read this thread, I have come to rethink Nate's place in history.

Unfortunately, he's been overlooked and has been lost in history as far as recognition goes.

The problem with Thurmond, though, is two-fold. One, he was often injured. And two, he has no rings, no MVPs, only one Finals appearance, and no statistical crowns.

He has no MVPs because Russell and Wilt dominated it. NO ONE won MVP over a prime Wilt/Russell other than Oscar Robertson in 1964. West never won MVP, Baylor never won MVP, etc. Thurmond did finish second in 1967.

He has no rings because Rick Barry bailed on him to play in the NBA. After they extended the 76ers to more games than any other team did in the 1967 playoffs, there was talk about the Warriors being a potential dynasty. 76ers' coach Alex Hannum said, "I think if you talk about dynasty in the next 10 years, the Warriors are the team to talk about." Nate Thurmond was being talked about as the heir-apparent for the best center in the league with Russell having exited his prime.

"If there was any doubt prior to this series that San Francisco's Nate Thurmond is Chamberlain's heir apparent as the league's best center, it was quickly dispelled." (Apr. 26, 1967)

The future was bright for the Warriors, but then Rick Barry made a verbal agreement that he would re-sign with the Warriors with Nate Thurmond, and Thurmond took him at his word and re-signed, but then Barry split for the ABA, leaving Thurmond by himself.

[QUOTE]Now that Rick Barry has been enticed from Frank Mieuli

[MakeHistory78]

:
And at Wilt being more skilled than Hakeem.

Wilt was like Bob Cousy(to Magic).Very important for the next generations of the game.
He was the first center who used Fadeaway shot and finger roll.
Wilt was closed as a skilled player to Hakeem.Also he was better passer,scorer and defender.
And as a player Wilt>>>Hakeem and every center.He would destroy him.


About the thread.I watched Thurmond at some old games and his was a true warrior.He played against all the monsters of the 60's-70's.The three greatest centers.Wilt/Russell/KAJ.
He is underrated.But NBA people put him at the 50 greatest players back to 1997.They left out most famous players like Mcadoo and Dominique.But Nate was in.I agree with jlauber he is Top-3 ever Center defender.
And I'm not a very big fan of the 60's and 70's.I'm fan of 80's-90's and I could give more credit to Hakeem or Ewing.
But no.The three GOAT defenders are Russell/Wilt/Thurmond.
I consider also Wilt as the 2nd greatest player ever.MJ is the GOAT for me.

[jlauber]

Wilt was like Bob Cousy(to Magic).Very important for the next generations of the game.
He was the first center who used Fadeaway shot and finger roll.
Wilt was closed as a skilled player to Hakeem.Also he was better passer,scorer and defender.
And as a player Wilt>>>Hakeem and every center.He would destroy him.


About the thread.I watched Thurmond at some old games and his was a true warrior.He played against all the monsters of the 60's-70's.The three greatest centers.Wilt/Russell/KAJ.
He is underrated.But NBA people put him at the 50 greatest players back to 1997.They left out most famous players like Mcadoo and Dominique.But Nate was in.I agree with jlauber he is Top-3 ever Center defender.
And I'm not a very big fan of the 60's and 70's.I'm fan of 80's-90's and I could give more credit to Hakeem or Ewing.
But no.The three GOAT defenders are Russell/Wilt/Thurmond.
I consider also Wilt as the 2nd greatest player ever.MJ is the GOAT for me.

Excellent post. As far as Wilt's skills go...he was a good outside shooter in the early year's of his career.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html

[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

Here is footage of his skills, as well. Take a close look at his jump shot at the free line early on. It looks nearly perfect. That was a great example of what he brought into the NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Chamberlain's offense >>> Russell and Thurmond's offense. I would use Chamberlain on Kareem in the '72 WCF. Chamberlain's defense against another elite offensive center is a better example.

True, but here again, Wilt had regular season matchups with a prime Russell at his offensive best, where he held him to .398 shooting (and Russell shot a career high .467 that season.) He had post seasons where he held both Thurmond and Russell to nearly a 100 points under their regular season FG%. In the '68 playoffs, he held Bellamy to .421 shooting, and Bellamy had been at .541 during the regular season.

As great as Wilt was against Kareem in '71 and '72 playoffs (and in the '73 regular season), one can only wonder what a prime Chamberlain, circa '66 or '67, would have done at BOTH ends of the floor against him.

[Da_Realist]

Gotta appreciate the research that went into this thread. It's hard as hell grabbing stats from back then. Good job.

[jlauber]

Gotta appreciate the research that went into this thread. It's hard as hell grabbing stats from back then. Good job.

I agree. It must have been an exhaustive effort. Hopefully he can find some of the other great matchups, as well.