Bill Russell College Days

[alexandreben]

[QUOTE=jlauber]How good an ATHLETE was Russell?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Besides basketball, Russell represented USF in track and field events. He competed in the 440 yard (402 m) race, which he could complete in 49.6 seconds.[14] He also participated in the high jump; Track & Field News ranked him as the seventh-best high jumper in the world in 1956. That year, Russell won high jump titles at the Central California AAU meet, the Pacific AAU meet, and the West Coast Relays. [B]One of his highest jumps occurred at the West Coast Relays, where he achieved a mark of 6 feet 9

[ShaqAttack3234]

When Howard dunks on a 12 ft rim, I'll START to compare his leaping ability to Chamberlain's.

When some proof of this actually surfaces, then I'll consider Chamberlain a comparable athlete to Howard.

If Shaq was scoing 30 ppg, I see no reason why Chamberlain would not have, either...particularly with so few top centers at the time. In the 66-67, 67-68, and 68-69 seasons, Chamberlain faced the likes Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Hayes, Unseld, Beatty among others, 8-9 times a year. Shaq was facing Robinson, Mourning, Ewing, and Olajuwon, 2-4 times a year (and Ewing and Olajuwon were over-the-hill by 99-00)..and even then, injuries reduced those H2H's as well.

z

Don't forget Duncan who Shaq often matched up with, Sabonis was extremely strong and skilled, Divac was a skilled quality center, Mutombo is one of the greatest defensive players of all time ect. these guys easily cleared the 7' mark. Shaq had good competition in the 2000 season, he just made everyone else look bad in comparison.

I see a reason why Chamberlain couldn't match Shaq's scoring season in the same era. For 1, I've seen nothing to suggest Wilt was stronger than Shaq, I've seen nothing to suggest he was explosive athletically ON a basketball court, I've seen nothing to suggest he had as good moves or footwork and finally, I've seen nothing to suggest he was as tough physically(by Wilt's own admission he didn't play as physical as he should have).

Wilt could get his shots from 10-15 ft...which was something that Shaq could not do, either. He was getting the ball some 60 times per game in the mid-to-late 60's...so he could easily have put up 30 shots per game then, and in 99-00.

Show me actual game footage of Wilt hitting 15 footers(not highlight mixes because I could show you highlight mixes of Shaq doing all sorts of things he normally doesn't do). No way does Wilt get anywhere NEAR 30 shots per game in 2000. The game was far too slow and big men have a harder time getting a high volume of shots up, that's why in the modern era we've seen guys like Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, Dominique ect. get up easily the most shots. That's because they can hit perimeter shots and create off the dribble from the perimeter where they won't be doubled as much as a big man in the post.

I have used Shaq's Finals as an example before...he was scoring 38, 36, and 33 ppg (againsy Motumbo no less.) Here again, I see no reason why a much fitter and more athletic Wilt, who could easily play 48 mpg, would not be scoring 35 ppg.

First of all, if you're going to claim Wilt is more athletic, show some actual video footage to back that up. And no, over an 82 game season, nobody, much less a big man would be playing anywhere near 48 minutes in recent years.)

Here again, though, those who claim that the pace of the game would limit Wilt's rebounding...

First of all, RODMAN averaged nearly 19 rpg one season. If a 6-8 225 lb Rodman could do that, then a 7-1 (or taller) high-jump champ with 500 lb bench press strength, and who DID dominate EVERY center he faced...would SURELY have gotten that many. Secondly, while Rodman was no more than ordinary in the post-season (9.9 rpg), Wilt was even BETTER in the post-season (up to 24.5 rpg from 22.9 during the regular season.) Not only that, but Chamberlain had post-seasons of over 30 rpg. And finally, and one more time...

Who cares what Rodman did? Wilt isn't Rodman.
IMHO, Shaq's greatest post-season rebounding game was in game two of the 99-00 Finals. He grabbed 24 rebounds, in 46 minutes, out of a total of 125 rebounds in that game. While Wilt had MANY better games, the one that stands out to me, was in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals. In that game, at age 35, and playing with two badly swollen wrists (and on a surgically repaired knee) Chamberlain pulled down 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a total of 106. He nearly outrebounded the entire Knick team, as well, which finished with 39.

So, for anyone to believe that Jordan would outscore Wilt...sorry, but here are some interesting comparisons. In MJ's highest scoring season, 86-87, he averaged 37 ppg on .482 shooting, in a league that averaged 110 ppg on .480 shooting. In Wilt's greatest scoring season (but when he was nowhere near his PRIME), Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg, on .506 shooting, in a league that averaged 119 ppg on .426 shooting. Simply put, no matter how you slice it, Wilt was a FAR more dominant scorer.

Wilt needed 39.5 shots per game and 17 free throws per game to average that much. Jordan needed 27.8 shots per game and 11.5 free throws per game. Jordan was more efficient as a GUARD.

So, if MJ were averaging 37 ppg in 86-87, a 61-62 Wilt would probably have easily have averaged 40 ppg. You can argue that MJ was only in his 3rd season as well...but in any case, Wilt COULD have easily have scored far more in the mid-60's than what he did. IMHO, he was a much better all-around player from 66-69, and had he been asked to CARRY an offense, he would have been a 40-50 ppg scorer then.

This is extremely flawed logic, Rodman grabbed X amount of rebounds so Wilt would average more, Jordan scored X amount of points so Wilt would score more.)

In terms of physical ability, there is just too much evidence that credits Wilt with something along the lines of at LEAST a 42" vertical leap, and something around a 500 lb bench press. And both of those figures are VERY conservative, BTW (the internet is filled with links of well over a 48" vertical, and a bench press as high as 550 lbs.)

No, there's actual very little evidence to suggest those are facts. In fact, if you tried to make this case in a court of law, you'd be well short on evidence. A lot of these ridiculous claims come from Wilt himself. And if Wilt even had a 42" vertical leap, his head would be 8" over the rim which woudl mean his mouth would be at or above the rim. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Now, does anyone really think a 35-18 .600 season in the late 90's or early 00's is being unrealistic?

Yes, considering Shaq peaked at 30/14 on 57.4% shooting and I've seen no footage that suggests Wilt was as good of a scorer, much less better.

[G.O.A.T]

Where did I compare him to evolved standards? In fact, I said he deserves his credit on an all-time list because of how he played in his own era.

Furthermore, I've watched plenty of Russell footage.

There is so many conclusions you have drawn in this post that seriously undermine your argument. Your assumptions are flawed too.

I made not one assumption nor did I draw any conclusions that are anything by facts.

Please explain what you mean...

You said Kevin Durant is a better player, Russell is a five-time MVP and 11-time Champion, there is no argument to support your position.

[jlauber]

When some proof of this actually surfaces, then I'll consider Chamberlain a comparable athlete to Howard.

z

Don't forget Duncan who Shaq often matched up with, Sabonis was extremely strong and skilled, Divac was a skilled quality center, Mutombo is one of the greatest defensive players of all time ect. these guys easily cleared the 7' mark. Shaq had good competition in the 2000 season, he just made everyone else look bad in comparison.

I see a reason why Chamberlain couldn't match Shaq's scoring season in the same era. For 1, I've seen nothing to suggest Wilt was stronger than Shaq, I've seen nothing to suggest he was explosive athletically ON a basketball court, I've seen nothing to suggest he had as good moves or footwork and finally, I've seen nothing to suggest he was as tough physically(by Wilt's own admission he didn't play as physical as he should have).



Show me actual game footage of Wilt hitting 15 footers(not highlight mixes because I could show you highlight mixes of Shaq doing all sorts of things he normally doesn't do). No way does Wilt get anywhere NEAR 30 shots per game in 2000. The game was far too slow and big men have a harder time getting a high volume of shots up, that's why in the modern era we've seen guys like Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, Dominique ect. get up easily the most shots. That's because they can hit perimeter shots and create off the dribble from the perimeter where they won't be doubled as much as a big man in the post.



First of all, if you're going to claim Wilt is more athletic, show some actual video footage to back that up. And no, over an 82 game season, nobody, much less a big man would be playing anywhere near 48 minutes in recent years.)



Who cares what Rodman did? Wilt isn't Rodman.
IMHO, Shaq's greatest post-season rebounding game was in game two of the 99-00 Finals. He grabbed 24 rebounds, in 46 minutes, out of a total of 125 rebounds in that game. While Wilt had MANY better games, the one that stands out to me, was in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals. In that game, at age 35, and playing with two badly swollen wrists (and on a surgically repaired knee) Chamberlain pulled down 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a total of 106. He nearly outrebounded the entire Knick team, as well, which finished with 39.



Wilt needed 39.5 shots per game and 17 free throws per game to average that much. Jordan needed 27.8 shots per game and 11.5 free throws per game. Jordan was more efficient as a GUARD.



This is extremely flawed logic, Rodman grabbed X amount of rebounds so Wilt would average more, Jordan scored X amount of points so Wilt would score more.)



No, there's actual very little evidence to suggest those are facts. In fact, if you tried to make this case in a court of law, you'd be well short on evidence. A lot of these ridiculous claims come from Wilt himself. And if Wilt even had a 42" vertical leap, his head would be 8" over the rim which woudl mean his mouth would be at or above the rim. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?



Yes, considering Shaq peaked at 30/14 on 57.4% shooting and I've seen no footage that suggests Wilt was as good of a scorer, much less better.

Regarding video footage, Wilt is at a Hude disadvantage, since there is so little of his GREAT games available. Still, the FACTS speak for themselves. HIGH JUMP CHAMP, a long jump of over 22 ft (and the world record was somewhere around 25 ft at the time), sprinter, 440 yard, 880 yard, marathoner, shot putter...and weight lifter. AND, using your logic, there would be very little evidence to suggest who won the Civil War. There are several eye-witness accounts of Wilt's feats. AND, you will probably not find ONE player, or member of the media that would claim that ANYONE else who played in Wilt's era jumped higer, or was stronger. So while you find it hard to believe that Wilt had a vertical of 48" and benched 500 lbs, I find it rather convincing that there are NO legitimate eye-witness accounts of him doing anything less. You can come back with an argument that many believe Elvis to be alive, but you and I both know that there are MANY MORE who KNOW that he is dead. You simply can't find anyone that knew Wilt, or played with, or against, Wilt, or who coached him, or against him, or members of the media that covered him at the time...that would DISPUTE any of those claims. And yes, EYE-WITNESS accounts stand in a court of law BTW.

As far as Wilt highlights...yes there are a TON of him hitting 10-15 ft bank shots, turn around jump shots, jump shots, and even a couple of hook shots. Given the FACT that the man made over 12,000 baskets in his career (not counting the post-season), I would contend that those highlights, many of which were in the early to mid-60's were VERY indicative of his offense.

As far as Shaq's strength, there are links on the internet that have Ben Wallace with a more powerful bench-press (460 lbs to Shaq's REPORTED 440...although I have never seen ANY footage of Shaq coming close to that figure.) Of course, bench-press is just one area. Shaq was very powerful...but here again, there are MANY accounts of Chamberlain's physical strength that go beyond a bench press...and MOST of them are NOT by him, but other eye-witnesses (here again...MANY.)

And, YOUR opinion that Wilt would NOT get 30 shots a game...that is YOUR opinion. As for Jordan being a more efficient scorer...Wilt shot a HIGHER FG%, AND made MORE FTs in that 61-62 season, than Jordan did in 86-87. NO WAY was Jordan more efficient. AND, when you get to Wilt's mid-60's, when he was shooting over .600 for a period of at least three years (and probably over .600 for the entire second half of his career), well, Wilt, in his PRIME, even taking 25 shots a game, would have scored nearly 40 ppg.

In terms of rebounding...Chamberlain CRUSHED his opponents. The same cannot be said for ANY other player in NBA history. Rodman was the best rebounder of his era...in an era of 7-2 centers struggling to get 8 rpg...BUT, in the post-season, he was not nearly as good as the best centers of his era. IMHO, Shaq was, at his peak, the best. BUT, his best post-season was 15.4 ppg. Wilt had post-seasons of 28, 29, 30...and series of 32. Including the post-season, and even accounting for pace, Wilt was FAR better than ANY player of ANY era. AND, the FACT was, there were probably only a handful of post-season games, in which Wilt was outrebounded by an opposing center. Bill Russell is arguably the game's second greatest rebounder, and in his 142 H2H games against Wilt, he was outrebounded by Chamberlain, 92-42-8...and overall, by FIVE rebounds a game. AND, in the post-season, Wilt outrebounded him in EVERY post-season series.

The BEST argument for Wilt's dominance, though, is in transitory comparisons. Wilt, in his PRIME, CRUSHED the likes of Thurmond, Reed, and even Russell in terms of statistical domination. And even at ages 35-36, the general consensus is that he held his own against a PRIME Kareem (who also struggled against a Thurmond, that Chamberlain pounded in the mid-60's.) And, as we all know by now, Kareem, as the oldest player in the league, averaged 42 ppg against a young Hakeem in the the 85-86 season. Hakeem went on to be the best center of the 90's. And while I do agree that Shaq was better, in his prime, the fact was, Shaq NEVER outplayed Hakeem to the extent that an aged Kareem did. And, as far as Howard...virtually no intelligent observer would rate him over either Shaq, at his peak, or Olajuwon, at his. All of which takes us back to Wilt. In his PRIME, he was unstoppable. And even well past his prime, and on a surgically repaired knee, he was holding a prime Kareem to over 100 points less on his FG%, and was routinely blocking over five of his sky-hooks PER GAME. And, of course, he generally outrebounded Kareem, as well. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have accomplished against a PRIME Kareem. I any case, even at 36 years of age, and after major surgery, Wilt was stronger and more athletic than a PRIME Kareem.

One more time...when Howard comes up with anything CLOSE to the resume that Chamberlain's physical history has illustrated, then I will BEGIN to include him in discussions of all-around athleticism. The FACT was/is...Howard is not even CLOSE to Wilt in ANY physical ability...including vertical leap.

[magnax1]

The game actually looks waaaaay smoother then I expected. The hookshots are hilarious though. I like to shoot the hookshot, but I want to know how people came to the conclusion that it is better then a jumpshot from long range. Kareem could shoot it from far away like that, but I don't its anywhere near as efficient as a jumpshot

[jlauber]

Wilt's high jump reached 6'6", and Russell's is 6'9"?!

That means Russell outjumps Wilt?? How good is the source?

Russell did high-jump higher...but Wilt was at least 4" taller ( I contend that Russell was about 6-10, and Chamberlain was over 7-2...no matter what you have read.) And Wilt's wingspan was measured at 92" during the Cosell interview with him and Ali. So, while Russell may have had a slight edge in a vertical leap, Wilt had a height and reach advantage that gave him an overall edge over Russell.

BOTH were superb ATHLETES, but Wilt partcipated in even more track events. Given the fact that Wilt was unable to devote his time, full time, to ANY of his events, and it just makes his track accomplishments all the more remarkable. He won a Big-7 High-jump championship with ver poor technique (while most jumpers were sprinting down a ramp before their leaps, Wilt would take 3 steps and then jump.) CLEARLY, had Wilt decided to specialize in any of those events, and he would have been MUCH better at them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regarding video footage, Wilt is at a Hude disadvantage, since there is so little of his GREAT games available. Still, the FACTS speak for themselves. HIGH JUMP CHAMP, a long jump of over 22 ft (and the world record was somewhere around 25 ft at the time), sprinter, 440 yard, 880 yard, marathoner, shot putter...and weight lifter. AND, using your logic, there would be very little evidence to suggest who won the Civil War. There are several eye-witness accounts of Wilt's feats. AND, you will probably not find ONE player, or member of the media that would claim that ANYONE else who played in Wilt's era jumped higer, or was stronger. So while you find it hard to believe that Wilt had a vertical of 48" and benched 500 lbs, I find it rather convincing that there are NO legitimate eye-witness accounts of him doing anything less. You can come back with an argument that many believe Elvis to be alive, but you and I both know that there are MANY MORE who KNOW that he is dead. You simply can't find anyone that knew Wilt, or played with, or against, Wilt, or who coached him, or against him, or members of the media that covered him at the time...that would DISPUTE any of those claims. And yes, EYE-WITNESS accounts stand in a court of law BTW.

There are no witnesses that say they saw Wilt's vertical leap measured and all you have are statements like X body builder could bench X amount and he said Wilt was the strongest person he knew. The vertical leap claims and 12 foot dunk claims come from only Wilt. This is the same guy who claimed a mountain lion jumped on his back and he threw it off by the tail.

As far as Wilt highlights...yes there are a TON of him hitting 10-15 ft bank shots, turn around jump shots, jump shots, and even a couple of hook shots. Given the FACT that the man made over 12,000 baskets in his career (not counting the post-season), I would contend that those highlights, many of which were in the early to mid-60's were VERY indicative of his offense.

Those are just highlights, they don't tell us how consistent he was with those shots. Shaq made a faceup 10-12 foot jumper in game 1 of the 2000 finals, doesn't mean that was a regular part of his arsenal or a consistent shot for him. The highlights don't include all of the shots he missed. That's why actual unedited game footage is a much better way to judge players.

As far as Shaq's strength, there are links on the internet that have Ben Wallace with a more powerful bench-press (460 lbs to Shaq's REPORTED 440...although I have never seen ANY footage of Shaq coming close to that figure.) Of course, bench-press is just one area. Shaq was very powerful...but here again, there are MANY accounts of Chamberlain's physical strength that go beyond a bench press...and MOST of them are NOT by him, but other eye-witnesses (here again...MANY.)

Shaq's reported bench press is actually 465, atleast I've seen reports of him benching that much. But enough about bench press, just look at how he's overpowered guys like 7'2", 265 Mutombo, 7'0", 280+ pound Greg Oden, 7'3", 300+ pound Arvydas Sabonis, 7'1", 270 pound David Robinson ect. And I have footage of him making each of those players look weak.

And, YOUR opinion that Wilt would NOT get 30 shots a game...that is YOUR opinion. As for Jordan being a more efficient scorer...Wilt shot a HIGHER FG%, AND made MORE FTs in that 61-62 season, than Jordan did in 86-87. NO WAY was Jordan more efficient. AND, when you get to Wilt's mid-60's, when he was shooting over .600 for a period of at least three years (and probably over .600 for the entire second half of his career), well, Wilt, in his PRIME, even taking 25 shots a game, would have scored nearly 40 ppg.

And it's YOUR opinion that he would get 30 shots per game, but I have yet to hear a reasonable argument for Wilt or any player getting that many shots in the past 20-30 years. And yes, Jordan was more efficient, he averaged 37.1 ppg on 27.8 shots and 11.5 free throw attempts while Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg on 39.5 shots and 17 free throw attempts. So Jordan used roughly 33.55 possessions to score 37.1 ppg, that's roughly 1.1 points per field goal and free throw, a little over, actually, more like 1.106. Wilt, on the otherhand used 48 possessions to score 50.4 ppg, that's exactly 1.05 points per field goal and free throw.

Keep in mind that Jordan was much more efficient the following season when he averaged 35 ppg.

In terms of rebounding...Chamberlain CRUSHED his opponents. The same cannot be said for ANY other player in NBA history. Rodman was the best rebounder of his era...in an era of 7-2 centers struggling to get 8 rpg...BUT, in the post-season, he was not nearly as good as the best centers of his era. IMHO, Shaq was, at his peak, the best. BUT, his best post-season was 15.4 ppg. Wilt had post-seasons of 28, 29, 30...and series of 32. Including the post-season, and even accounting for pace, Wilt was FAR better than ANY player of ANY era. AND, the FACT was, there were probably only a handful of post-season games, in which Wilt was outrebounded by an opposing center. Bill Russell is arguably the game's second greatest rebounder, and in his 142 H2H games against Wilt, he was outrebounded by Chamberlain, 92-42-8...and overall, by FIVE rebounds a game. AND, in the post-season, Wilt outrebounded him in EVERY post-season series.

I've never claimed that Wilt wasn't a better rebounder than Shaq or the best rebounder of his era(though Russell is close). But nobody in Rodman's era was anywhere close to 18+ rpg like Rodman. The top 3 rebounders of all time in no order IMO are Rodman, Wilt and Moses Malone with Russell right in the conversation.

The BEST argument for Wilt's dominance, though, is in transitory comparisons. Wilt, in his PRIME, CRUSHED the likes of Thurmond, Reed, and even Russell in terms of statistical domination. And even at ages 35-36, the general consensus is that he held his own against a PRIME Kareem (who also struggled against a Thurmond, that Chamberlain pounded in the mid-60's.) And, as we all know by now, Kareem, as the oldest player in the league, averaged 42 ppg against a young Hakeem in the the 85-86 season. Hakeem went on to be the best center of the 90's. And while I do agree that Shaq was better, in his prime, the fact was, Shaq NEVER outplayed Hakeem to the extent that an aged Kareem did. And, as far as Howard...virtually no intelligent observer would rate him over either Shaq, at his peak, or Olajuwon, at his. All of which takes us back to Wilt. In his PRIME, he was unstoppable. And even well past his prime, and on a surgically repaired knee, he was holding a prime Kareem to over 100 points less on his FG%, and was routinely blocking over five of his sky-hooks PER GAME. And, of course, he generally outrebounded Kareem, as well. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have accomplished against a PRIME Kareem. I any case, even at 36 years of age, and after major surgery, Wilt was stronger and more athletic than a PRIME Kareem.

I've acknowledged that Wilt was a beast defensively in the second half of his career, but what I'm not sold on is that he was ever a better offensive player than Shaq or Kareem in their primes. I mean, his scoring wasn't particularly impressive at his peak in the 1967 finals so it's not like he dominated Thurmond at both ends.

One more time...when Howard comes up with anything CLOSE to the resume that Chamberlain's physical history has illustrated, then I will BEGIN to include him in discussions of all-around athleticism. The FACT was/is...Howard is not even CLOSE to Wilt in ANY physical ability...including vertical leap.

Howard's standing reach was measured at 9'3.5" and here he proves that he can touch 12'6" while dunking a basketball with one hand and placing a sticker with the other. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNK6VaBXeY

That puts his vertical at a MINIMUM 38.5" and that's assuming he was jumping as high as he possibly could there which is doubtful considering he was also placing a sticker and dunking.

Here's Shaq head around rim level on his 28th birthday despite weighing 340 pounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0sYKghh8ao Nevermind the fact that at the 1992 pre-draft camp, Shaq recorded a 36" vertical. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...=0&pos=0&sort=

Give me video footage of Wilt jumping that high or any verified vertical leap measurements.

[Simple Jack]

I made not one assumption nor did I draw any conclusions that are anything by facts.

Please explain what you mean...

You said Kevin Durant is a better player, Russell is a five-time MVP and 11-time Champion, there is no argument to support your position.

"but" facts you mean?

Nearly all of your post is what I mean.

My point and an example...

Have you heard people call Hakeem the GOAT center? We all have. Those same people wouldn't put Hakeem number 2 or 3 on an all-time list though because it's 2 different things. One is about accomplishments (team accomplishments playing a heavy role) and one is considering how good of an individual player the person in question is.

[jlauber]

There are no witnesses that say they saw Wilt's vertical leap measured and all you have are statements like X body builder could bench X amount and he said Wilt was the strongest person he knew. The vertical leap claims and 12 foot dunk claims come from only Wilt. This is the same guy who claimed a mountain lion jumped on his back and he threw it off by the tail.



Those are just highlights, they don't tell us how consistent he was with those shots. Shaq made a faceup 10-12 foot jumper in game 1 of the 2000 finals, doesn't mean that was a regular part of his arsenal or a consistent shot for him. The highlights don't include all of the shots he missed. That's why actual unedited game footage is a much better way to judge players.



Shaq's reported bench press is actually 465, atleast I've seen reports of him benching that much. But enough about bench press, just look at how he's overpowered guys like 7'2", 265 Mutombo, 7'0", 280+ pound Greg Oden, 7'3", 300+ pound Arvydas Sabonis, 7'1", 270 pound David Robinson ect. And I have footage of him making each of those players look weak.



And it's YOUR opinion that he would get 30 shots per game, but I have yet to hear a reasonable argument for Wilt or any player getting that many shots in the past 20-30 years. And yes, Jordan was more efficient, he averaged 37.1 ppg on 27.8 shots and 11.5 free throw attempts while Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg on 39.5 shots and 17 free throw attempts. So Jordan used roughly 33.55 possessions to score 37.1 ppg, that's roughly 1.1 points per field goal and free throw, a little over, actually, more like 1.106. Wilt, on the otherhand used 48 possessions to score 50.4 ppg, that's exactly 1.05 points per field goal and free throw.

Keep in mind that Jordan was much more efficient the following season when he averaged 35 ppg.



I've never claimed that Wilt wasn't a better rebounder than Shaq or the best rebounder of his era(though Russell is close). But nobody in Rodman's era was anywhere close to 18+ rpg like Rodman. The top 3 rebounders of all time in no order IMO are Rodman, Wilt and Moses Malone with Russell right in the conversation.



I've acknowledged that Wilt was a beast defensively in the second half of his career, but what I'm not sold on is that he was ever a better offensive player than Shaq or Kareem in their primes. I mean, his scoring wasn't particularly impressive at his peak in the 1967 finals so it's not like he dominated Thurmond at both ends.



Howard's standing reach was measured at 9'3.5" and here he proves that he can touch 12'6" while dunking a basketball with one hand and placing a sticker with the other. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNK6VaBXeY

That puts his vertical at a MINIMUM 38.5" and that's assuming he was jumping as high as he possibly could there which is doubtful considering he was also placing a sticker and dunking.

Give me video footage of Wilt jumping that high or any verified vertical leap measurements.

I can, and have, produce two EYE-WITNESS accounts from RESPECTED sources that have Wilt touching the top of the backboard (Sonny Hill), and with a vertical leap of at LEAST 42" (George Kisida.). I won't take the time to find the VIDEO of Sonny Hill making that comment, but if I HAD to produce it, I could. Here are the links...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Legends abound of the truly great leapers who could touch the top of the board. Almost always the feat involves money-claims that the player could grab a dollar bill off the top of the board, or could pluck off a quarter and leave two dimes and a nickel change ... "I defy anyone to say they took change off the top of the backboard," Chamberlain said. "I could. Someone would put a quarter up and I'd snatch it down. I've heard stories about Jackie Jackson doing it, but I've never seen anyone (but himself) come close." Sonny Hill, a Philadelphia leaping legend of the '60s, backs Wilt, saying, "The only man that's been to the top, that's Wilt. I asked Kareem if he ever did, and he could jump a little bit. He told me, `Sonny, no.'"[/COLOR]

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug...s/sp-dwyre22/2

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kiseda cites Chamberlain's incredible athleticism.

"I saw him palm a bowling ball," he says. "I also saw him go up for a jump ball against K.C. Jones and tip it in. I saw him standing in a hospital gown, in a room with a high ceiling, and jump at least 42 inches straight up and palm the ceiling."[/COLOR]

Regarding Chamberlain's 500+ lb. bench press, no, I can't produce video footage of his maximum bench press, but maybe YOU can produce Shaq benching 465 lbs?

I can give you an EYE-WITNESS account of Chamberlain benching 465 lbs., though, AND, at age 59!

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/chat.htm

[COLOR="DarkRed"]This is the transcript from Wilt's online interview from MSNBC

Subject:
From:
Host:
Date: NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain 4-18-97
Chris Donohue (MSNBC)
MSNBC
Mon Nov 24 11:58

"Host Chris_MSNBC2 says:
M3 says:
Question for Wilt...watched you bench press about 465 lbs like it was a match stick at the Stanford gym when you were working out there for some reason...how much can you still push up?

Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
Well, probably I can push up a little more than that right now, because I was bench pressing some great weights. I was a shot-putter and lifting weights was a great joy to me. I liked to show off, I don't do that anymore, but I could probably bench press more than 465 pounds now."[/COLOR]

Here is a link to an SI article written in 1964, in which the author mentions Wilt with a 400 lb. press...

[COLOR="DarkRed"]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm

"They like him and his perpetual-motion supporting cast, and they like winning. About the only people not happy are the Warriors' opponents. The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA."[/COLOR]

Here is a link that mentions Wilt with a 500 lb bench press, AND, mentions Shaq with a 450 lb. bench press...

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/sto...99/index6.html

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"I appreciate your comments. Remember, however, that long limbs do not mean you can't bench press excellent poundages. Wilt Chamberlain, the 7' 2" skinny elite basketball player had very poor mechanical advantages for the bench press. His chest was flat, and his arms were skinny and really long! Nonetheless, he was able to bench press 500 lbs! Nobody would believe this by looking at him. His bench press figures have been verified and are widely known. You can find documentation of it on the web. He just happened to have freakishly dense muscles, and excellent genetics when it came to all the other factors that result in brute strength.

Shaq O' Neil, however, can "only" bench press 450 lbs even though he has much thicker arms, more overall mass, shorter arms and a thicker chest. Shaq has to compensate for not being as gifted as Wilt in some areas.

If you are at a very high level in some areas, you can compensate for a weak area. To be the VERY best, however, you need to be elite in ALL AREAS. That is why Wilt could never bench press 700 lbs without support gear. For that, he would have needed better leverages, shorter arms, and a bigger chest."[/COLOR]

AND, as YOU well know, there are a TON of links out there crediting Wilt with up to a 550 lb. bench press. There are even several links which claims that Wilt benched 500 lbs while working out with Arnold Schwartzenegger.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/didyaknow.htm

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Wilt used to lift weights with Arnold Shwartzenegger and Wilt got his bench press up to 500 pounds[/COLOR]."

Now, whether that is true, I don't know, but we do know that they made a movie together in 1982, so it is very likely that they worked out together, as well. And while I have not read anything by Arnold confirming it Wilt's 500 lb. bench press, I have never read anything by him disputing it, either. So, there will be those that at least claim that he did have a 500 lb bench press while working out with Arnold.

And, regarding stories of Wilt's strength, there are a TON out there, and MANY of them are eye-witness accounts of Wilt doing something incredible. I am not going to waste the time posting them, though. Just google Wilt's strength, and you will find a HOST of them.

Getting back to video footage...

Wilt gets short-changed in the Wilt-Shaq or Wilt-Howard debates. While so much video footage is available on Shaq and Howard, there is very little, (but more-and-more is becoming available) of Chamberlain.

BUT, we do KNOW that Shaq had ONE 60 point game (61 to be exact.) We also KNOW that Chamberlain had 32 of them, which two more than the rest of the entire NBA players who have EVER played the game...COMBINED! Where are those videos? My god, when SI ran an article in 1969 claiming that Wilt could no long score, he put up a 60 and a 66 point game, within a few days of each other. AND in that 66 point game, Chamberlain shot an incredible 29-35 from the floor. Where is the 50-35 playoff game that Wilt hung on Russell? Where is the last period of game six of the '72 WCF's when Chamberlain dominated Kareem down the stretch? Where is his 18-18 game? Where is the video footage of Wilt grabbing 55 rebounds against Russell, or getting 41 rebounds against Russell in the playoffs? He had 34 games of at LEAST 30 rebounds, just against Russell alone. He also had 17 games of at least a 40-30 game...against RUSSELL. The FACT is, Chamberlain must have had literally HUNDREDS of STAGGERING games that we do not have ANY footage of.

In terms of athleticism...one more time...HIGH JUMP CHAMPION, long jump particpant, as well, as triple jump, 4x100 yard sprinter, 440 yard runner, 880 yard runner, marathoner, and well known weight lifter. He was also offered a LEGITMATE contract to play for the KC Chiefs, and was considered an All-Pro prospect by none other than Hank Stram. He also had TWO LEGITIMATE title offers to box Ali. AND in the interview of Ali and Chamberlain, Howard Cosell mentions that Wilt may be the strongest man in the world. Has anyone ever made that claim about Shaq or Howard?

Rebounding? Not even close. Chamberlain CRUSHED EVERYONE he faced. Rodman may have had some "mini stat" records, (and those came in an era of the weakest rebounding centers in NBA history BTW), BUT, in the post-season, he was not even good, but rather AVERAGE, at best. Meanwhile, Chamberlain had post-season RECORDS, as well as entire post-seasons of 28, 29, and 30 rpg. He even POUNDED Russell in one series by a staggering 32-23 margin per game. No matter how you disect those numbers, Wilt comes out WAY ahead of Rodman.

And, as I have shown...using Kareem as a "Bridge", and we can see that Chamberlain's dominance in the 60's would HAVE to give the conclusion that he would have dominated EVERYONE in the 00's.

[jlauber]

And yes, Jordan was more efficient, he averaged 37.1 ppg on 27.8 shots and 11.5 free throw attempts while Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg on 39.5 shots and 17 free throw attempts. So Jordan used roughly 33.55 possessions to score 37.1 ppg, that's roughly 1.1 points per field goal and free throw, a little over, actually, more like 1.106. Wilt, on the otherhand used 48 possessions to score 50.4 ppg, that's exactly 1.05 points per field goal and free throw.

Keep in mind that Jordan was much more efficient the following season when he averaged 35 ppg.

C'MON...

Wilt scored 50 ppg, and shot .506 from the floor, in an era of 119 ppg games AND in a league that shot .426. Jordan scored 37.1 ppg in a league that averaged 110 ppg and shot .482. And don't tell me that that means that the players of the 80's were more skilled than those of the 60's, either...because that same arguemnt works against the players of the 90's and 00's (Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting, in a league that averaged 98 ppg and shot .454.)

As, yes, go ahead and use MJ's 88-89 season. In Chamberlain's 66-67 season he averaged 24 ppg on 14 FG per game. Give Wilt 28 shots that season, and he makes 18 FGs, or 36 ppg, just on his FG shooting (not to mention that Wilt was already going 5-11 from the FT line that season...double those attempts, too, and you come up with a 46 ppg season.) Could he have maintained that rate? Probably not, but while Jordan was shooting .535 in a league that shot .477 in 88-89, Wilt was shooting .683 in a league that collectively shot .441 in 66-67. And once again, and as even YOU have agreed with...FT% is not nearly as important as FTs MADE. I'll take Shaq's 18-39 game over anyone with a 4-5 game, any day. And clearly, of course, I would take Wilt's 28-32 game over nearly EVERY FT game in NBA history. In any case, in Wilt's 61-62 season, he MADE MORE FTs than ANY of Jordan's BEST seasons.

[dough]

^ you called it Nique

The idiots never stop

Good stuff. I'm crying actually.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If you put Russell in Howard's position in Orlando he wouldn't score so many points because he wasn't a great scorer, that wasn't his game, but with a running team he could be as effective as he was for the Cs, no way would he do worse than K-Mart did for the Nets. He was a great athlete and he ran hard. A big that does that in an uptempo system with a good pg will get his share of points.

[dough]

If you put Russell in Howard's position in Orlando he wouldn't score so many points because he wasn't a great scorer, that wasn't his game, but with a running team he could be as effective as he was for the Cs, no way would he do worse than K-Mart did for the Nets. He was a great athlete and he ran hard. A big that does that in an uptempo system with a good pg will get his share of points.

Russell would set up loads of plays though. MUCH better in passing out of the post and setting up teammates. Actually he was really good at that. And seeing as how little Howard has been featured in set plays, the Magic might be better on offense with Russell, although he wouldnt score as many points.

[ShaqAttack3234]

JLauber, forget stats, it's pointless comparing stats from such different eras. Just look at Chamberlain's scoring average and efficiency when he was taking a much more comparable number of shots to Jordan in '63, '64 and '65. Regarding Kobe's 35 ppg season, forget the league average for shooting and points. The shooting % was way down because of all of the 3s guys were shooting and that was also the season that the league really enforced the handchecking rules, which resulted in an explosion in perimeter player's scoring. Not to mention that Kobe was less efficient than Jordan inboth of Jordan's 35+ ppg seasons by any measure.

And many of those articles just claim Wilt could bench a certain amount, throw out any of them that doesn't have a direct quote. Regarding the 42" vertical claim, first of all, that would mean he could jump as high as Jordan. Second of all, the guy just said he saw him palm of a ceiling, it didn't specify how high the ceiling was. That's just one guy's estimate, Wilt's vertical wasn't measured. I've seen sources that place Wilt's vertical at 24", doesn't mean that's true either.

Show me some actual footage of Wilt displaying the type of athleticism you claim he had. Stories don't interest me much, they're often exaggerated greatly as years go by.

How did Rodman play in an era of weak rebounders? He played against Barkley, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Mutombo, Ewing, Robinson, Oakley ect. ALL in their primes.

[alexandreben]

JLauber, forget stats, it's pointless comparing stats from such different eras. Just look at Chamberlain's scoring average and efficiency when he was taking a much more comparable number of shots to Jordan in '63, '64 and '65. Regarding Kobe's 35 ppg season, forget the league average for shooting and points. The shooting % was way down because of all of the 3s guys were shooting and that was also the season that the league really enforced the handchecking rules, which resulted in an explosion in perimeter player's scoring. Not to mention that Kobe was less efficient than Jordan inboth of Jordan's 35+ ppg seasons by any measure.

And many of those articles just claim Wilt could bench a certain amount, throw out any of them that doesn't have a direct quote. Regarding the 42" vertical claim, first of all, that would mean he could jump as high as Jordan. Second of all, the guy just said he saw him palm of a ceiling, it didn't specify how high the ceiling was. That's just one guy's estimate, Wilt's vertical wasn't measured. I've seen sources that place Wilt's vertical at 24", doesn't mean that's true either.

Show me some actual footage of Wilt displaying the type of athleticism you claim he had. Stories don't interest me much, they're often exaggerated greatly as years go by.

How did Rodman play in an era of weak rebounders? He played against Barkley, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Mutombo, Ewing, Robinson, Oakley ect. ALL in their primes.

Efficiency:

I think the PER can somehow tell who is more efficient, the following is the top ten:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_season.html
NBA/ABA
Rank Player PER Season Tm
1. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.84 1962-63 SFW
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.76 1961-62 PHW
3. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88 CHI
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09 CLE
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.64 1963-64 SFW
6. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91 CHI
7. Michael Jordan* 31.19 1989-90 CHI
8. Michael Jordan* 31.14 1988-89 CHI
9. LeBron James 31.10 2009-10 CLE
10. David Robinson* 30.66 1993-94 SAS

PER
Player Efficiency Rating (available since the 1951-52 season); PER is a rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance." Please see the article Calculating PER for more information. Also see VAA and VAR.

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Rebounding:

Due to the era difference, we try to use varies of data analysis to compare players from different eras.
TRB%: According to my calculation that Rodman's TRB% is always higher than Wilt, even in Wilt's 61-62 season, his TRB% is around 17.1%~18.1%.

TRB percentage: Because Rodman's minutes play is so shrink compare to Wilt, so, Wilt's TRB percentage(17% or 18%) is much higher than Rodman or Shaq(14% or 15%).