ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #12. Dirk Nowitzki vs John Havlicek.

[Kblaze8855]

Hondo having worse numbers as a 6th man type should be expected. But he was the leading scorer and an elite defender on what? 3 title teams? He did too much for me to lump him in as a sidekick type. I dont see how its much different than kobe with shaq. Except shaq was really his teams best offensive threat.

Hondo was out there dropping 40 point near triple doubles in closeout games and making epic shots and defensive plays to win rings.

He was putting in serious work from like 66 to the mid 70s. Too much to downplay for me.


Plus it was the 70s. Bigmen got the love. Ive heard from cowens mouth the celtics were hondos team and they looked to him for leadership and all. He was the captian face of the team and its leader. Im not sure its as simple as mvp votes to see whos team it was. Mvp voting has done some odd things. Look into ewing hakeem and isiah teammates votes some years.

[RobertdeMeijer]

John Havlicek

[nycelt84]

John Havlicek

[creepingdeath]

Dirk, but I really hate those match-ups (not necessarily your fault, kblaze).

[1987_Lakers]

John Havlicek had GREAT longevity, but he was rarely considered a top 5 player in the league & Dave Cowens was the best player on those 70's Celtics championship teams once you look closer. I see Havlicek as a Scottie Pippen type of player, great all-around player, a champion, a top 5-8 player in the league, but not elite. I vote Dirk

[D.J.]

Hondo


How Dirk got past Baylor, I don't know.

[Carbine]

Dirk.

[Mr Know It All]

Dirk Nowitzki.

[FF1]

Dirk

Won without an all star.. Clutch as hell.

lol @ Rick Barry and Dr J ahead of these guys.

[Kblaze8855]

I think Hondo is up one right now. This is gonna be close. i'll give it the full 2 days.

[raiderfan19]

Im gonna be really sad if my vote is the one that makes dirk lose

[NugzHeat3]

Yeah, its 10-9 for Hondo at the moment.

[rhythmic]

I am in disbelief that Dirk was voted over Elgin Baylor.
I have never in my life witnessed a player climb the hierarchy faster then Dirk, just because of one championship. Especially considering he wasn't particularly all that great against Miami.

He had one of the most impressive playoff runs in league history. The road to glory was very challenging, and his performance was legendary. He was as efficient as a perimeter scorer could be, and he was clutch throughout. I am not disagreeing with anything he has achieved this past season; but as much as he did, it should not justify his place within the hierarchy.

I believe Dallas beating Miami had more to do with a collaborative effort by the team, rather then Dirk simply carrying them to victory. He honestly didn't impress me nearly as much as he did getting to the big stage. As a power-froward, he has never averaged a double-double in his career. Yes, he elevates his game in the playoffs but if we make this exception; then we should make these exceptions for every player. He is a solid passer, but nothing to write home about. His defense is actually good, well one aspect of it. I think there is a misconception about his defensive prowess because he is considered "soft" or "European". I personally think Dirk is a very good man-to-man defender, who avoids fouling the opposition and is quite instinctive. However, he is perhaps one of the worst defensive anchors at his position amongst all the truly great big man. His effort defensively is what I question most; he has poor awareness, does a lousy job boxing out and doesn't put in the effort at anchoring the post at all. Which is why Tyson Chandler was such a key addition, and I believe the main reason Dallas actually won the title.

In the past, Dirk would always score efficiently and step up in crucial moments; but he's never had that defensive anchor like Tyson. What I am getting at, is that Dirk never did his part defensively. For being their superstar and having the size to protect the paint; he never really put in the effort. I think that falls on him and in big part, why his team failed to win a title up until last year.

In comparison to Elgin Baylor; Dirk just was never as dominant. Beside his authenticity, how can anyone (who truly watched both players play) can conclude that Dirk was better then Elgin?

The guy has achieved so much more in this league (minus a championship) that it's just inconceivable to me that anyone would pick Dirk above Elgin. People will question Baylor's characteristics; claim he was never a winner, or some ball-hog, or that he wasn't as efficient. But wasn't that the critique Dirk faced for basically an entire decade, before finally winning a championship? Would Dirk lead a team to a title during the Russell era?

Baylor was a better scorer, passer & play-maker. There literally is nothing Dirk did better then Baylor besides shoot. He doesn't have as many personal accolades, nor led his team to as many NBA final appearances. Yeah perhaps it's a detriment to Baylor's career that he was never able to win a title even-though he led his team's to so many opportunities. But for an entire decade, Dirk had great teammates around him and he only managed to lead them to two NBA final appearances. Breaking-down their respective resumes', Elgin simply did a lot more in this league then Dirk.

I fail to see the criteria people used to justify that Dirk was better then Baylor. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

I pick Havlicek, by the way.
P.S. - I do believe that Havlicek, Dirk and Baylor should all be higher on this list (anywhere from 5th to 11th). I am anxious to see which players people picked above them on the list.

[FF1]

This list is going to get more and more embarrassing.

[Lebron23]

Havlicek