MJ > defender and impact than Shaq (for reference purposes)

[3ball]

The main thing you fail to understand is that [COLOR="DarkRed"]impact is not equal to advantage[/COLOR].

Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR] depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards. .

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

And it's possible for one position to absolutely be more important on defense than another.

Again, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR] depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards..

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Shaq is one of 16 centers to have been all-defense three or more times (first or second team).

Guys like Robinson, Hakeem, Alonzo, Mutombo - they were considered elite defensive centers - Shaq was never considered on these guys' level defensively.

Also, Shaq's three 2nd team all-defense selections is nowhere NEAR Jordan (or Pippen or Lebron), and that's the basis for the point we're making here.

[COLOR="Red"]When he wanted to[/COLOR], he was an absolute beast on defense. By the way, Wes Unseld never made the all defense squad. I suppose he wasn't elite either.

He was only motivated during Phil's first year in 2000.. But in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.

Overall, Shaq's teams were top 6 in defense only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days.. And they were top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. His teams simply were not good defensive teams.

So he couldn't have been a "beast" like you want - like many people, you've created that false perception because Shaq's sheer size biases your opinion and/or you're conflating his 1 good year (2000) with all the other bad years.

Btw, I have no idea about Wes Unseld except that his career high blocks (0.9) and career average (0.6) was less than Jordan's.

It is possible for the overall quality of defense in the league to get better or worse. It's not just a relative measure.

i ONLY consider defensive ranking relative to the league - that's how I always do it - I could give 2 bird shits about numerical value of DRtg.

The only thing that matters is how his teams ranked defensively relative to the league - and they didn't rank well - they were only top 6 once in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times).

[3ball]

Shaq SLAUGHTERED those guys over his CAREER.
I have posted the numbers before, and it was overwhelming, both regular season and post-season.

Furthermore, in the Spurs-Laker series from '01 thru '04, Jackson used to put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th quarters. I won't take the time to dig up the numbers now, but Duncan probably shot a cumulative .400 or so in those 4th quarters.

Comparing head-to-head stats is irrelevant - elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing had great defensive teams nearly every year, while Shaq almost never did - so their overall defensive impact was greater, regardless of the H2H matchup.

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his overall defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team..

Obviously, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, [COLOR="navy"]but the advantage they give their team[/COLOR] depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR].. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

[LAZERUSS]

Comparing head-to-head stats is irrelevant - elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing had great defensive teams nearly every year, while Shaq almost never did - so their overall defensive impact was greater, regardless of the H2H matchup.

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his overall defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team..

Obviously, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, [COLOR="navy"]but the advantage they give their team[/COLOR] depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR].. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

And I don't give a damn about TEAM rankings, either.

Wilt played with some horrible defensive supporting casts in his career, so in some year's his TEAM rankings were not elite. He was STILL and ELITE defensive force his ENTIRE career, though.

And do you think that MJ was the ONLY reason why the Bulls were ranked as high as they were? Hell no...they had ELITE defenders all over those rosters...some of them very under-rated (like Harper.)

Sorry, but Shaq's defensive dominance was NOT tied to his TEAM's defensive rankings.

And yes, he was a DOMINANT force against Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and other's his entire career. You mentioned their career H2H FG%'s (and Shaq was MILES better)...all three of those guys were WELL BELOW their career FG%'s. It was no coincidence.

And then, he destroyed those ELITE defensive centers when he was on the offensive end, as well. Their impact against Shaq's TEAM's were FAR less than against the rest of the league.

[3ball]

And I don't give a damn about TEAM rankings, either.

[COLOR="Red"]Wilt played with some horrible defensive supporting casts in his career[/COLOR], so in some year's his TEAM rankings were not elite. He was STILL and ELITE defensive force his ENTIRE career, though.

And do you think that MJ was the ONLY reason why the Bulls were ranked as high as they were? Hell no...they had ELITE defenders all over those rosters...some of them very under-rated (like Harper.)

Sorry, but Shaq's defensive dominance was NOT tied to his TEAM's defensive rankings.

[COLOR="Blue"]But Shaq didn't - unlike Wilt, Shaq played with great defenders, more than MJ did:[/COLOR]


Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates



MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates



[COLOR="Red"]And Shaq's Laker teams were stacked defensively - in addition to 1st team all defense Kobe, he had solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox and others.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]Even though Shaq had more all-defensive teammates than Jordan, his teams were far worse defensively, which proves his defensive impact was not elite.

Shaq's teams were top SIX in defense only 1 time in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top TEN only 7 times in 15 years.. This is why Shaq himself only made three 2nd team all defensive teams in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) - his defensive impact was simply not elite.

Btw, in addition to his Laker teams being stacked defensively, so were his Miami teams - Shaq had all-pro defender Wade, and also Alonzo Mourning, who led the Heat bench with an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes...

In Orlando, he had all-pro defender Horace Grant, and solid defenders Penny and Donald Royal.[/COLOR]
.

[LAZERUSS]

[COLOR="Blue"]But Shaq didn't - unlike Wilt, Shaq played with great defenders, more than MJ did:[/COLOR]


Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates



MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates



Even though Shaq had more all-defensive teammates than Jordan, his teams were far worse defensively, which proves his defensive impact was not elite.

[COLOR="Navy"]Shaq's teams were top SIX in defense only 1 time in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top TEN only 7 times in 15 years.. This is why Shaq himself only made three 2nd team all defensive teams in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) - his defensive impact was simply not elite.

Btw, his Laker teams were stacked defensively - in addition to 1st team all defense Kobe, he had solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox and others.

His Miami teams were stacked defensively too - in addition to all-pro defender Wade, Shaq had Alonzo Mourning, who led the Heat bench with an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes...

In Orlando, he had all-pro defender Horace Grant, and solid defenders Penny and Donald Royal.[/COLOR]

Whatever.

No one is claiming that Shaq was on MJ's level defensively.

[3ball]

Whatever.

No one is claiming that Shaq was on MJ's level defensively.

So why we arguing if you agree

[LAZERUSS]

So why we arguing if you agree

Well, if I have read your posts on this specific topic correctly, even you are agreeing that Shaq was elite defensively in 2000.

And no, I wouldn't take an old MJ over a 2000 Shaq defensively, nor offensively for that matter.

Career's? MJ had a greater career, and was a better defender.

[3ball]

.
[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4 [COLOR="Green"]<---- these are links to nba.com data[/COLOR]
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0..... 38.1..... 34.0..... 39.4...... 38.4...... 43.9
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9..... 38.0..... 33.9..... 34.0...... 35.4...... 26.2
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1..... 35.3..... 33.5..... 25.7...... 38.1...... 28.2




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1..... 63.0..... 64.0..... 84.5...... 73.6...... 91.1
JORDAN 1998... 54.3..... 53.6..... 59.4..... 76.5...... 58.3...... 69.1


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9..... 59.9..... 49.3..... 55.4...... 48.7...... 64.5
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4..... 56.5..... 49.4..... 54.9...... 57.4...... 59.5
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3..... 51.9..... 49.5..... 44.6...... 55.5...... 54.9

[3ball]

Well, if I have read your posts on this specific topic correctly, even you are agreeing that Shaq was elite defensively in 2000.

Agreed, Shaq was elite defensively in 2000 - Phil's first year was the only year he was motivated with a good work ethic, which resulted in the Lakers having the league's #1 defense..

But after he got that first championship, he went back to his old ways - in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.

And no, I wouldn't take an old MJ from 1997/1998 over a 2000 Shaq defensively

Agreed, for 2000 specifically.

But I would take old MJ over 2001 Shaq, when the Lakers had the 21st ranked defensive team, despite having 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.

And I wouldn't take old MJ over 2000 Shaq offensively either.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I believe that when a player has a much higher proportion of his team's points and assists while winning a championship, they are the superior offensive player.

And it's clear-cut, statistical fact that old MJ did this - his percentage of points and assists was much higher in 1997 and 1998, then Shaq's in 2000 (see previous post, #98).

Career's? MJ had a greater career, and was a better defender.

Agreed

[LAZERUSS]

Agreed, Shaq was elite defensively in 2000 - Phil's first year was the only year he was motivated with a good work ethic, which resulted in the Lakers having the league's #1 defense..

But after he got that first championship, he went back to his old ways - in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.



Agreed, for 2000 specifically.

But I would take old MJ over 2001 Shaq, when the Lakers had the 21st ranked defensive team, despite having 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.



We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I believe that when a player has a much higher proportion of his team's points and assists while winning a championship, they are the superior offensive player.

And it's clear-cut, statistical fact that old MJ did this - his percentage of points and assists was much higher in 1997 and 1998, then Shaq's in 2000 (see previous post, #98).



Agreed

For once...

[3ball]

For once...

Glad we finally agree on something (the contents of the last post).

Btw, in 1997 and 1998, not only did MJ have a higher proportion of his team's points, and also pts + ast then Shaq did in 2000 (shown at bottom), but MJ did so on equal efficiency to Shaq:


[COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN 1997 REG SEAS[/COLOR]: 56.5 ts... 121 ORtg
[COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2000 REG SEAS[/COLOR]: 57.8 ts... 115 ORtg

[COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN 1998 PLAYOFFS[/COLOR]: 54.5 ts... 117 ORtg
[COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2000 PLAYOFFS[/COLOR]: 55.6 ts... 114 ORtg




[COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4 [COLOR="Green"]<---- these are links to nba.com data[/COLOR]
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1
O'NEAL[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2000... 35.0..... 38.1..... 34.0..... 39.4...... 38.4...... 43.9



[COLOR="White"]....................[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR]RS[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR]RS 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] PO[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]PO 4th[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR]Finals[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1..... 63.0..... 64.0..... 84.5...... 73.6...... 91.1
JORDAN 1998... 54.3..... 53.6..... 59.4..... 76.5...... 58.3...... 69.1
O'NEAL[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2000... 53.9..... 59.9..... 49.3..... 55.4...... 48.7...... 64.5