kareem vs russell -- who is the greatest player of all time?

[Angel Face]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[Dragic4Life]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

Agreed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Both are inferior to Jordan. Russell have the rings but doesn't have the stats. Kareem was a sidekick in most of his rings, 2FMVP / 6 championships. Heck a rookie Magic won FMVP over him.

Jordan has the complete package. Combination of accolades, stats, popularity, highlight reel moves, artistry, playoff heroic moments and clutch plays. Undefeated in the Finals and bagged all FMVP in his every trip there. He has the aura that makes everyone shocked and in awe when watching him. Also, every casual fan knows him, I doubt about Russell and Kareem.

Both of them can shine Jordan's shoes. No argument over MJ as the GOAT.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell

I know you hate to say it, but Kareem has a godly combination of rings/stats like MJ... 3 as best player, 4 with elite/goat like type production.

[mehyaM24]

good to see most posters appreciate the 2 goats

like drj4ever, i have trouble with this because kareem was so dominant and had such amazing longevity, whereas russell won everywhere he went. hell even coached a team to the finals.

maybe we can boil it down like this-
for stability and easy building: russell
total package: kareem

[the mesiah]

Out of those 2 ,Neither is greatest player of all time , but I would rank Lew higher than William

[Pointguard]

Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.

[swagga]

Kareem was the better player not the better competitor. If they were contemporaries I believe Russell wins more because he's a great team player.

If Kareem was a contemporary with Jordan I really believe Jordan could have shut him out. I really believe Russell would have gotten Jordan once or twice. Magic might have been the only one to top Russell.

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

[mehyaM24]

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

[Pointguard]

good luck with those chicago bigs... and with winning from the first day since it took jordan alot of time to learn to play for the team (thanks phil). Kareem was a dominant centerpiece from day 1 until 2 years before his retirement. That means 17 seasons of elite production. NOBODY matches that. And compared to jordan he went through some GOAT matchups and won in the most stakked era of all time, the 80s.... he also won and contended with some poor teams before (please don't mention oscar on his last leg being a star).... did jordan come close to contention/winning with poor teams?.. no.

Kareem is GOAT imo. The college career, the rings, the stats, the longevity. Being able to be both alpha and beta (truly there for the win). Went against wilt, thurmond, walton, 80s celtics, 4-4-4 philly, late 80s detroit. That some badass competition right there. Jordan barely got by the pistons when they aged. Jordan's best position rival was clyde drexler, that's not shabby but compared to wilt, moses malone or thurmond he's a nobody.

I'm tired of this Jordan is undisputed goat shit. KAJ, Magic both have serious cases against him but trolls just try to undermine them because they played together. Also the 5/5 shit which later became 6/6 was started by jordan stans to prop their boy over magic waaaaay back in 1997. Jordan also benefited from an easy era because there were no true superteams besides the bulls .. much like the 60s celtics. If the 80s lakers played in the 90s they probaby ring all decade long.

Won't talk about russell because he's from an older era and benefited from super stack teams relative to league power. Wilt is the goat talent and statpadder but that wasn't coupled with will and dedication.

This jordan brainwashing wasn't there in the early 90s son, people still remembered other GOAT talent. Nowadays it's just untalkable. You get crazy posts like if Jordan was better than magic in the post like low post action doesn't even exist.

As for kareem vs russell I'll take the one that can reliably score a bucket, therefore kareem.

Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.

[Pointguard]

some good points

just a note,though. i wouldnt say that ENTIRE 90s decade was weak. the mid-to-late 90s, however had to have been the meekest competition all time.

Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?

[swagga]

Want to compare top player's in their prime between the two decades???

Want to compare centers at their best???

Want to compare the players that won in years when MJ and Kareem lost?

want to compare TEAMS, as they win rings?
want to compare position matchups to see against whom these players earned their stripes and who was their best direct competition?

Your questions mean nothing in terms of team play (which TEAM rings) and position play (which men did they go up against). Who gives a shit jordan beat ewing when starks was the second option ?? who cares that hakeem was a beast when his team was poor?? NOBODY is winning it alone. NOBODY.

[swagga]

Basically, I'm talking about having equal teams with MJ and Kareem as centerpieces. I also think Magic was a better team player than Jordan. No way would Rick Barry with an inferior team win it all on Jordan's watch. No way would Jordan get shut out in four years of bad basketball while Kareem should have been in his peak. I just don't see it. It wasn't until Kareem stepped down that Lakers could win a back to back. There are only a handful of players that you can really say had a way with winning: Russell, Magic, Duncan are at the top of that order.

Kareem played ten years in the 70's and his most productive years and won once. Who in the top ten GOAT list could have pulled that off? Kobe, Lebron and Hakeem who are usually listed end of GOAT list would have at least won twice. '75 - 79 were kind of wide open - even Portland wasn't that experienced. Jordan totally dominated the era of greatest centers. In Kareem's tenure centers were reduced to a significantly weaker role - the weakest it was since Wilt/Russell. Gus Williams, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry were more impressive winning wise with their teams than Kareem was with his. The center's who heavily imprinted wins were Wilt, Cowen's and Reed in the 70's. When Kareem had the center spotlight to himself in the worst consecutive 5 years the league has had since the mid '50's, he couldn't convince the world that the center position meant much for a title at all.

If you can't distinguish yourself when nobody is around, how are you going to do it when the real heavy hitters are around?

Great player and great longevity with Kareem. But he likely has a 16 year career without Magic with two rings tops as the best player. Jordan, if he started in 1970 does his 14 years no less than 8 rings or 9 rings. I would still take Jordan.

I will also say that I believe Wilt was the most serviceable center the league ever had. Coaches were not up for his level of talent. He could do everything that was important from that position at the highest level.

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

[Asukal]

Russell. He is the GOAT winner and the only one deserving of GOAT talk together with MJ.

KAJ? I can't seriously consider him in the top 3, I think Magic should get more credit for those 5 rings than KAJ. Even after he retired, the Lakers under Magic's leadership was a title contender. KAJ in his prime lost to teams he shouldn't have lost to. In contrast, MJ in his early years lost to great teams.

[colts19]

TEAMS win rings. With whom would jordan win 8 or 9 rings? Alone? Does he play 1v5? Does he get the stacked 90s bulls? Does he get a shit team?

wilt couldn't do the most basic thing a basketball player has to do. To play with other people with the purpose of winning. It was always wilt not having time to practice, wilt stat whoring for APG titles, wilt not getting along with the coach, wilt not shooting to make a point, wilt shooting sparsely to win the FG title.
Wilt was never there to win it all for the team. Wilt was there to win it on wilt's terms for wilt's sake ... and some very reasonable HOF teammates couldn't help him do it consistently throughout his career..

Jesus christ, your post reeks of the shit nike pushed in basketball fans mouths for the entire 90s: that the alpha dog wins it by himself. The biggest myth in basketball!

This may be the best post I have ever read. Thank You.