Old School NBA heads: How valid are Dr. J's ABA accomplishments?

[Im Still Ballin]

I haven't done much research on this topic, my speciality has always primarily been about the major rule changes historically to the game... I know the 3pter came from the ABA during the early 80's... A much more offensive league compared to the 70's NBA which had turned into a defensive, physical jump shot league... Them Jackie Moon halftime brawls yo. It wasn't until they brought in the Illegal Defense Guidelines to open up the paint in 1981 and instituting the firs hand check restrictions in 1979 that the game began to evolve into the free flowing game that the 80's was known for..

So I've got a pretty good knowledge about the time period in relation to rules, just not about the state of competition in the ABA, the details of the merger period etc...

Relating to Dr J... How legit are his 2 ABA championships and 3 ABA MVPs?

I mean... I feel like he's one of the most underrated top players... 3 Championships.. 4 MVPs.. Epic stats, an absolute talented beast.. Athletic, long, skilled.

The question is however, how legit were the ABA ones?

[Im Still Ballin]

Yo Round Mound

What you got

[3ball]

I haven't done much research on this topic, my speciality has always primarily been about the major rule changes historically to the game

Your specialty is lying about the rules, like when you claimed that defenders had to hug their man at the 3-point line - this was ostensibly debunked on the last page of your compendium thread (post #62), where the actual rules are posted.

It wasn't until they brought in the Illegal Defense Guidelines to open up the paint in 1981

The NBA's perception of what constituted an "open paint" in 1981 (when the 3-point line had just been introduced and no one shot threes) is night-and-day different from what the NBA considered an open paint in 2005, when the rules were changed again (and everyone was shooting tons of threes).

and instituting the first hand check restrictions in 1979 that the game began to evolve into the free flowing game that the 80's was known for..

The NBA stopped allowing defenders to "impede" a ballhandler's progress in 1979 (that's the hand-check rule you refer to), but FOREARMS were allowed to impede progress until 1998, and contact via hand or forearm was allowed to "reroute" or "hold up" a ballhandler anywhere on the court until 2001, when all contact above the FT line was banned (not fully enforced until 2005)..

These things can be easily seen by referring to NBA.com's rules history page, or referring to my own summary of the regulatory evolution of hand-checking here.
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[hateraid]

I dont know mucb about the differences in rules between the ABA and NBA but I would say in a basketball sense it was all validated by the fact that the players were all still NBA calibre. ABA was just as challenging considering as well that the league had less teams so it was less watered down and every game was a rivalry. Also Julius came in and still dominated the NBA. He was the only player in the history if the NBA that made all star starter every year of his career.

[Im Still Ballin]

I guess when you account for minutes per game and how many shots taken/usage percentage... There's literally not much between his stats from the ABA and NBA

[Round Mound]

Yo Round Mound

What you got

I am more into 80s and early 90s b-ball but what i do know is that the 70s was even more physical than the 80s and early 90s. ABA was as good as the NBA imo and it sucks that both leagues did not merge untill the tail end of the decade so we could have enjoyed more competitive basketball and it would be easier to judge players from that league and era.

Dr J was a Beast. I have him as a Top 4 SF of all time (1-Bird, 2-Lebron, 3-Elgin). His stasts might have been inflated thanks to the style of play in the 70s but he would have been a 25-8-4-2-1.5 player in any era i believe. He was somewhat similar to Lebron: he could finish like the best of them, take it coast to coast like the best of them, great rebounder for his size and weight, great passer, solid around the basket and was a very good chase down shot blocker (a la lebron). Solid defender as well. Maybe his mid range game was not as developed as other greats but overall the dude was a beast

[3ball]

I guess when you account for minutes per game and how many shots taken/usage percentage... There's literally not much between his stats from the ABA and NBA

Do you still think defenders had to hug their man at the 3-point line, or have you come off that.

If you still think that, then not only are you ignorant, you're crazy

[Im Still Ballin]

Do you still think defenders had to hug their man at the 3-point line, or have you come off that.

If you still think that, then not only are you ignorant, you're crazy

Define hug

[3ball]

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[COLOR="Red"]Forearms[/COLOR] were allowed to "impede progress" until 1997-1998 season:

1997-98:

• A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

With regards to hand-checking, the "impeding progress" ban instituted in 1979 still allowed players to maintain contact via hand or forearm anywhere on the court, and also "reroute" or "hold up an offensive player in going from point A to point B" - [COLOR="Navy"]these things weren't banned until 2001[/COLOR]:

2000-01:

• [COLOR="DarkRed"]No contact[/COLOR] with either hands or forearms by defenders [COLOR="DarkRed"]except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended[/COLOR] in which case the defender may use his forearm only.

• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to [COLOR="DarkRed"]reroute[/COLOR] or [COLOR="DarkRed"]hold-up[/COLOR] an offensive player going from [COLOR="DarkRed"]point A to Point B[/COLOR] or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.

In 2005, the NBA decided to "curtail" hand-checking (enforce the aforementioned 2001 ban on contact above the foul line) and instituted a new defensive 3 second rule meant to "open up the game":

2004-05:

• New rules were introduced to [COLOR="DarkRed"]curtail hand-checking[/COLOR], clarify blocking fouls and [COLOR="DarkRed"]call defensive three seconds to open up the game[/COLOR].

The crackdown on hand-checking in 2005 included banning all contact other than "momentary touching" and all contact that affected any aspect of "movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm)", as shown on the NBA.com "misunderstood rules" page, updated January 2012:

Hand Checking:

A defender may [COLOR="DarkRed"]momentarily touch[/COLOR] an oppopent with his hand anywhere on the court [COLOR="DarkRed"]as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement[/COLOR] (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).

http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

The new defensive 3 seconds rule that was meant to "open up the game" didn't allow defenders to remain in the paint unless they were within "armslength" of an offensive player while "moving along with the offensive player":

Defensive Three Seconds:

A defensive player is not allowed inside the key area for more than three seconds unless he is guarding the player with the ball or is actively guarding any opponent. To be considered actively guarding, a defender must be within an [COLOR="DarkRed"]arms length[/COLOR] of an opponent. If an offensive player moves through the key, the defender must be within an arms length, and also [COLOR="DarkRed"]move along with the offensive player[/COLOR]. He can not just stand there and put his arms out to get a new three second count.

http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

Today's "armslength" requirement for paint defenders is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having players stand shoulder-to-shoulder.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Your specialty is lying about the rules, like when you claimed that defenders had to hug their man at the 3-point line - this was ostensibly debunked on the last page of your compendium thread (post #62), where the actual rules are posted.



The NBA's perception of what constituted an "open paint" in 1981 (when the 3-point line had just been introduced and no one shot threes) is night-and-day different from what the NBA considered an open paint in 2005, when the rules were changed again (and everyone was shooting tons of threes).



The NBA stopped allowing defenders to "impede" a ballhandler's progress in 1979 (that's the hand-check rule you refer to), but FOREARMS were allowed to impede progress until 1998, and contact via hand or forearm was allowed to "reroute" or "hold up" a ballhandler anywhere on the court until 2001, when all contact above the FT line was banned (not fully enforced until 2005)..

These things can be easily seen by referring to NBA.com's rules history page, or referring to my own summary of the regulatory evolution of hand-checking here.
.

[3ball]

Define hug

[COLOR="Red"]2e[/COLOR]. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds.

http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Le...les/Fouls.html

^^ So a defender can sag off and dip into the paint for 2.9 seconds just like today's player.

[COLOR="Red"]2e.[/COLOR] When a strongside offensive player is above the free throw line extended "upper defensive area", his defensive man may be no lower than the "middle defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds

^^ So defenders could paint camp indefinitely in the "middle defensive area" (upper part of the paint) when their man was between 3-point line and FT line

[COLOR="Red"]2a.[/COLOR] Weakside defenders may be in a defensive position within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds. The defensive player must re-establish a position with both feet out of the "Insidelane" to be considered as having legally cleared the restricted area.

^^ So weakside defenders could sag off corner/sideline 3-point shooters and paint camp indefinitely in the "outside" lane (outer partition running up both sides of paint), and they could stay in the "inside" lane for 2.9 seconds (like today's player).
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[3ball]

What about 35/5/5 games

Or 40/5/5 games

Or 45/5/5 games

Or 50/5/5 games


So your stat is childs-play compared to Jordan's playoff stats - he averaged nearly 6 more points with better efficiency across the board (ts, fg, ortg), with only 1 less assist (despite playing off-ball more)..

There's never been a #1 option that averaged nearly 6 more points on better efficiency that wasn't consdered the FAR better player..

Seriously, imagine if Lebron averaged a whopping 6 more points in the playoffs?... He'd be on another level entirely.. Btw, Jordan has 47 games of 40+ points in the playoffs (1 every 3.8 games), compared to Lebron's 15 games (1 every 14 games).