Wilt Chamberlain vs Nate Thurmond 1973 WCF

[dankok8]

Here were KAJ's and Nate's stats in their FIVE game series.

KAJ outscored Nate by margins of 25-19, 26-18, 33-23, 32-17, and 23-11 in those five games.

Now, I know you mentioned post-season, but we never got to see a "scoring" Wilt against Nate in the post-season (of course, Wilt was even more dominant against Nate in the '67 Finals, if you factor in assists, blocks, and...FG%, in which he ousthot Nate by a .560 to .343 margin.)

But, lets' use their NINE H2H's in the 65-66 regular season, shall we?

Nate outscored Wilt in their very first encounter, by an unbelieveable margin of 30-15 (as we will see, it had to have been an anomaly)...

then in their next eight H2H games, Wilt outscored Nate by margins of:

22-13, 26-9, 25-20, 38-15, 23-18, 45-13, 33-17, and 30-10.

Kareem's highest margin over Nate in the '71 playoffs was +15 (32-17.) In their 65-66 H2H's, Wilt had margins of +16, +17, +20, +23, and get this... +32.

I didn't include the rebounding numbers, because all we have for Nate is five of their nine games. Nor did I include any FG% because all we have are two of Wilt's (games of 8-22 and 17-32), and none of Nate's.

Again, a peak KAJ was nowhere near as dominant as a prime Chamberlain was against Nate.

Except 65-66 Nate in his first full year starting at C wasn't as good as 70-71 Nate.

Wilt vs Nate:

Season Average

26.7 ppg on 50.0%
28.6 ppg
20.8 ppg on 63.3%

Playoff Average

17.7 ppg on 56.0%

Kareem vs Nate:

Season Average

26.6 ppg on 48.4%
24.0 ppg on 44.1%
25.8 ppg on 48.8%
24.2 ppg on 57.1%

Playoff Average

27.8 ppg on 48.6%
22.8 ppg on 40.5% (injured)
22.8 ppg on 42.8%

That's pretty much a wash. Remember Kareem took a lot more shots in the playoffs against Nate than Wilt ever did. You can't blindly compare raw FG% when one player is taking way more shots than the other.

[LAZERUSS]

Except 65-66 Nate in his first full year starting at C wasn't as good as 70-71 Nate.

Wilt vs Nate:

Season Average

26.7 ppg on 50.0%
28.6 ppg
20.8 ppg on 63.3%

Playoff Average

17.7 ppg on 56.0%

Kareem vs Nate:

Season Average

26.6 ppg on 48.4%
24.0 ppg on 44.1%
25.8 ppg on 48.8%
24.2 ppg on 57.1%

Playoff Average

27.8 ppg on 48.6%
22.8 ppg on 40.5% (injured)
22.8 ppg on 42.8%

That's pretty much a wash. Remember Kareem took a lot more shots in the playoffs against Nate than Wilt ever did. You can't blindly compare raw FG% when one player is taking way more shots than the other.

And of course, KAJ's ONLY decent shooting season against Nate came in that 73-74 season, when Nate was fighting injuries, missed 20 games, and was already in a severe state of decline from his last quality season of 72-73. And in his very next season, 74-75, he was basically a shell.

Overall, KAJ only shot .447 against Nate in anything close to his norm. His 24.2 ppg .571 season was against that rapidly declining (and injury-plagued) Nate. You can throw that one out. Nate was a considerably better, in his 65-66 season. And that season came just before his greatest season, 66-67 (when he finished a distant second to Wilt in the MVP voting.) And, of course, the numbers clearly show a prime Chamberlain just slaughtering a prime Nate in that season beyond recognition.

And again, in Wilt's 65-66 season, he pounded Nate with scoring margins of 33-17, 26-9, 30-10, 38-15 and a staggering 45-13. KAJ never approached that domination against Thurmond.

Oh, and this "Nate who was not as good as the 70-71 Nate"...

Here were his 10 H2H's against RUSSELL in 65-66:

Game 1:
Nate: 18 pts, 27 rebs
Russell: 17 pts, 22 rebs, 7-13 FG/FGA

Game 2:
Nate: 19 pts, 12 rebs
Russell: 8 pts, 20 rebs, 4-9 FG/FGA

Game 3:
Nate: 20 pts
Russell: 8 pts, 28 rebs

Game 4:
Nate: 21 pts, 31 rebs
Russell: 13 pts, 24 rebs, 4-11 FG/FGA

Game 5:
Nate: 19 pts
Russell: 16 pts, 24 rebs

Game 6:
Nate: 25 pts, 27 rebs
Russell: 15 pts, 11 rebs, 6-12 FG/FGA

Game 7:
Nate: 24 pts, 24 rebs
Russell: 10 pts, 28 rebs

Game 8:
Nate: 34 pts, 19 rebs
Russell: 8 pts, 24 rebs, 2-8 FG/FGA

Game 9:
Nate: 23 pts, 23 rebs
Russell: 12 pts, 19 rebs

Game 10:
Nate: 11 pts, 14 rebs
Russell: 11 pts, 23 rebs, 5-13 FG/FGA

Known season averages:

Nate: 20.2 ppg, 22.2 rpg
Russell: 11.8 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .429 FG%

Without knowing all of their FG% numbers, I would think that Thurmond easily outplayed Russell.

[dankok8]

And of course, KAJ's ONLY decent shooting season against Nate came in that 73-74 season, when Nate was fighting injuries, missed 20 games, and was already in a severe state of decline from his last quality season of 72-73. And in his very next season, 74-75, he was basically a shell.

Overall, KAJ only shot .447 against Nate in anything close to his norm. His 24.2 ppg .571 season was against that rapidly declining (and injury-plagued) Nate. You can throw that one out. Nate was a considerably better, in his 65-66 season. And that season came just before his greatest season, 66-67 (when he finished a distant second to Wilt in the MVP voting.) And, of course, the numbers clearly show a prime Chamberlain just slaughtering a prime Nate in that season beyond recognition.

And again, in Wilt's 65-66 season, he pounded Nate with scoring margins of 33-17, 26-9, 30-10, 38-15 and a staggering 45-13. KAJ never approached that domination against Thurmond.

Oh, and this "Nate who was not as good as the 70-71 Nate"...

Here were his 10 H2H's against RUSSELL in 65-66:

Nate was a much better scorer in the early 70's then in 65-66 though... averaged 4-5 ppg more on 3-4% better efficiency.

And Nate ALWAYS missed a ton of games to injury including in 66-67.

The truth is Nate at his peak shot pretty terribly against Kareem in many games... In 70-71 we have two season games where Nate shot 4-17 and 10-22. In 71-72 we have two season games where he shot 1-9 and 4-11.

In '71, '72, and '73 playoffs Nate shot 37.1%, 43.4%, and 39.7% from the field against Jabbar.

And in the '71 and '73 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a bigger margin than Chamberlain ever did in the postseason. Kareem outscored Nate by 10+ ppg, outrebounded him by 6+ rpg and outshot him by a ton as well in both series.

Overall Kareem and Wilt both struggled against Nate and both "dominated" him to about the same degree.

[LAZERUSS]

Nate was a much better scorer in the early 70's then in 65-66 though... averaged 4-5 ppg more on 3-4% better efficiency.

And Nate ALWAYS missed a ton of games to injury including in 66-67.

The truth is Nate at his peak shot pretty terribly against Kareem in many games... In 70-71 we have two season games where Nate shot 4-17 and 10-22. In 71-72 we have two season games where he shot 1-9 and 4-11.

In '71, '72, and '73 playoffs Nate shot 37.1%, 43.4%, and 39.7% from the field against Jabbar.

And in the '71 and '73 playoffs Kareem outplayed Nate by a bigger margin than Chamberlain ever did in the postseason. Kareem outscored Nate by 10+ ppg, outrebounded him by 6+ rpg and outshot him by a ton as well in both series.

Overall Kareem and Wilt both struggled against Nate and both "dominated" him to about the same degree.

A PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant, even in the post-season (when you factor in every statistical category) against a prime Nate, than KAJ EVER was. Not even close.

Again, a PRIME Chamberlain just slaughtered a near peak Nate by FAR greater scoring margins that a PRIME KAJ did against a fading Nate. Where were KAJ's 38-15 and 45-13 obliterations? Where were the seasons (not including an rapidly declining, injury-plagued Nate in the twilight of his career, in 73-74) where he was outscoring Nate by 29-16 ppg margins. Where were his regular seasons when he was outscoring a PEAK Nate by a 21-13 ppg margin, and outshooting him by a .633 to .327 margin. Or post-seasons where he was outshooting a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin?

Come on...get over it. A PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against ALL of his peers, than KAJ ever was.

I might take the time later to post a peak/prime Wilt's numbers against a peak/prime Bellamy, and then compare them with the aging Bellamy/prime KAJ H2H's, too.

[dankok8]

A PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant, even in the post-season (when you factor in every statistical category) against a prime Nate, than KAJ EVER was. Not even close.

Again, a PRIME Chamberlain just slaughtered a near peak Nate by FAR greater scoring margins that a PRIME KAJ did against a fading Nate. Where were KAJ's 38-15 and 45-13 obliterations? Where were the seasons (not including an rapidly declining, injury-plagued Nate in the twilight of his career, in 73-74) where he was outscoring Nate by 29-16 ppg margins. Where were his regular seasons when he was outscoring a PEAK Nate by a 21-13 ppg margin, and outshooting him by a .633 to .327 margin. Or post-seasons where he was outshooting a PEAK Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin?

Come on...get over it. A PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against ALL of his peers, than KAJ ever was.

I might take the time later to post a peak/prime Wilt's numbers against a peak/prime Bellamy, and then compare them with the aging Bellamy/prime KAJ H2H's, too.

In 70-71 and 71-72 we don't have enough FG% data but in the 4 games we do have Nate shot 19/59 or 32.2%.

In 73-74 Kareem outscored Nate 24.2 ppg to 8.4 ppg and outshot him 57.1% to 40.7% (we only have Nate's FG% for 2 out of 5 games).

Kareem never outshot Nate by .560 to .343 margin in the postseason but he outscored him by 27.8 ppg to 17.3 ppg and outshot him by 48.6% to 37.1% margin in the same series! And also outrebounded him 15.6 to 10.2 by the way. Scoring volume also matters not just efficiency.

For example Wilt outshooting Nate in '69 and '73 is almost meaningless considering how many fewer shots he took!

[LAZERUSS]

In 70-71 and 71-72 we don't have enough FG% data but in the 4 games we do have Nate shot 19/59 or 32.2%.

In 73-74 Kareem outscored Nate 24.2 ppg to 8.4 ppg and outshot him 57.1% to 40.7% (we only have Nate's FG% for 2 out of 5 games).

Kareem never outshot Nate by .560 to .343 margin in the postseason but he outscored him by 27.8 ppg to 17.3 ppg and outshot him by 48.6% to 37.1% margin in the same series! And also outrebounded him 15.6 to 10.2 by the way. Scoring volume also matters not just efficiency.

For example Wilt outshooting Nate in '69 and '73 is almost meaningless considering how many fewer shots he took!

\

Again, this was a rapidly declining and injury-plagued Nate (who was far worse that season than he was in his rookie season for cryingoutloud), and who would be just a shell in his very next season. Sorry, this doesn't count.

If we are using that season, then KAJ's 87-88 season was a true indication of his career, as well.

BTW, and including the post-season (as well as mpg), KAJ had his greatest statistical season (and probably his greatest season, period), in his SECOND season. Furthermore, take a look at Kareem's Bucks team defense in his second and third seasons. He was probably at his defensive peak by then, as well. So, to suggest that Nate in his second season was nowhere close to his prime, and when his PEAK season came in only his THIRD, is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

[LAZERUSS]

In 70-71 and 71-72 we don't have enough FG% data but in the 4 games we do have Nate shot 19/59 or 32.2%.

In 73-74 Kareem outscored Nate 24.2 ppg to 8.4 ppg and outshot him 57.1% to 40.7% (we only have Nate's FG% for 2 out of 5 games).

Kareem never outshot Nate by .560 to .343 margin in the postseason but he outscored him by 27.8 ppg to 17.3 ppg and outshot him by 48.6% to 37.1% margin in the same series! And also outrebounded him 15.6 to 10.2 by the way. Scoring volume also matters not just efficiency.

For example Wilt outshooting Nate in '69 and '73 is almost meaningless considering how many fewer shots he took!

In the 71-72 playoffs, Nate outscored KAJ, 25.4 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot him from the field, by a .437 to .405 margin. Thurmond CLEARLY outplayed Kareem in that post-season series. Despite barely outscoring Wilt in two of their post-season H2H's, he was outshot by staggering margins (.500 to .392, and then .611 to .373), and was shelled on the glass by Wilt 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg, and then 23.6 to 17.2 rpg. NO ONE would have EVER claimed that Nate outplayed Wilt in ANY of their playoff series H2H's. And of course, a PRIME Chamberlain only faced him in one other one, and absolutely annihilated him in five of the six games (and just killed him in the clinching game six win.)

[LAZERUSS]

In 70-71 and 71-72 we don't have enough FG% data but in the 4 games we do have Nate shot 19/59 or 32.2%.

In 73-74 Kareem outscored Nate 24.2 ppg to 8.4 ppg and outshot him 57.1% to 40.7% (we only have Nate's FG% for 2 out of 5 games).

Kareem never outshot Nate by .560 to .343 margin in the postseason but he outscored him by 27.8 ppg to 17.3 ppg and outshot him by 48.6% to 37.1% margin in the same series! And also outrebounded him 15.6 to 10.2 by the way. Scoring volume also matters not just efficiency.

For example Wilt outshooting Nate in '69 and '73 is almost meaningless considering how many fewer shots he took!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=291462

1969 - 1970 (Kareem's rookie season) 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 42.0 mpg 21.67 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, [COLOR="DarkRed"]0.348 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

Nate ---- 46.7 mpg 20.67 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, [COLOR="DarkRed"]0.490 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

1970 - 1971 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 26.67 ppg, 14.7 rpg,[COLOR="DarkRed"] 0.484 FG/FGA [/COLOR]

Nate ---- 23.83 ppg, 11.0 rpg,[COLOR="DarkRed"] 0.477 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

1970 - 1971 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 39.2 mpg 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.6 apg, 0.486 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 38.4 mpg 17.60 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 0.371 FG/FGA

1971 - 1972 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 24.00 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 0.441 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 16.33 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 0.260 FG/FGA

1971 - 1972 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 47.0 mpg 22.8 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 5.4 apg, [COLOR="DarkRed"]0.405 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

Nate ---- 46.0 mpg 25.40 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, [COLOR="DarkRed"]0.434 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

1972 - 1973 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 25.83 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 0.488 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 13.67 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.367 FG/FGA

1972 - 1973 6 games - playoffs

Kareem - 46.0 mpg 22.83 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg,[COLOR="DarkRed"] 0.428 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

Nate ---- 42.5 mpg 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, [COLOR="DarkRed"]0.423 FG/FGA[/COLOR]

Again, thanks to Julizaver.

[dankok8]

\

Again, this was a rapidly declining and injury-plagued Nate (who was far worse that season than he was in his rookie season for cryingoutloud), and who would be just a shell in his very next season. Sorry, this doesn't count.

If we are using that season, then KAJ's 87-88 season was a true indication of his career, as well.

BTW, and including the post-season (as well as mpg), KAJ had his greatest statistical season (and probably his greatest season, period), in his SECOND season. Furthermore, take a look at Kareem's Bucks team defense in his second and third seasons. He was probably at his defensive peak by then, as well. So, to suggest that Nate in his second season was nowhere close to his prime, and when his PEAK season came in only his THIRD, is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

LOL Nate was was way better in 73-74 than his rookie season. In the games he played that year he was 5th in rebounding, 6th in blocks, and made 2nd team all-defense. He played 40 mpg too so it was surely still his prime...

In the 71-72 playoffs, Nate outscored KAJ, 25.4 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot him from the field, by a .437 to .405 margin. Thurmond CLEARLY outplayed Kareem in that post-season series. Despite barely outscoring Wilt in two of their post-season H2H's, he was outshot by staggering margins (.500 to .392, and then .611 to .373), and was shelled on the glass by Wilt 23.5 rpg to 19.5 rpg, and then 23.6 to 17.2 rpg. NO ONE would have EVER claimed that Nate outplayed Wilt in ANY of their playoff series H2H's. And of course, a PRIME Chamberlain only faced him in one other one, and absolutely annihilated him in five of the six games (and just killed him in the clinching game six win.)

Kareem's left knee was injured in the '72 playoffs...

And as your stats show Kareem individually obliterated Nate in the '71 and the '73 series by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

LOL Nate was was way better in 73-74 than his rookie season. In the games he played that year he was 5th in rebounding, 6th in blocks, and made 2nd team all-defense. He played 40 mpg too so it was surely still his prime...



Kareem's left knee was injured in the '72 playoffs...

And as your stats show Kareem individually obliterated Nate in the '71 and the '73 series by a much bigger margin than Wilt ever did in the playoffs.

In 65-66 Nate averaged 16.3 ppg, 18.0 rpg, and while he just shot .406 from the field, it came in an NBA that shot .433. The very next season he came in second in the MVP voting with an 18.7 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .437 season (league shot .441.)

In 73-74, and missing 20 games, he averaged 13.0 ppg, 14.2 rpg, and shot .444 (in a league that shot .459.) Just the previous season, in 72-73, he averaged 17.1 ppg, 17.1 rpg, and shot .446. And, following his 73-74 season, Nate averaged 7.9 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and shot .364 from the field.

Clearly, he was a MUCH better player in 65-66 than he was in 73-74.

[dankok8]

In 65-66 Nate averaged 16.3 ppg, 18.0 rpg, and while he just shot .406 from the field, it came in an NBA that shot .433. The very next season he came in second in the MVP voting with an 18.7 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .437 season (league shot .441.)

In 73-74, and missing 20 games, he averaged 13.0 ppg, 14.2 rpg, and shot .444 (in a league that shot .459.) Just the previous season, in 72-73, he averaged 17.1 ppg, 17.1 rpg, and shot .446. And, following his 73-74 season, Nate averaged 7.9 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and shot .364 from the field.

Clearly, he was a MUCH better player in 65-66 than he was in 73-74.

The league was much faster paced in 65-66 than 73-74 so rebounds are pretty even. Nate also averaged more assists in 73-74, shot much better (even compared to league average) and was much more experienced.

In 74-75 he was washed up and I agree it seems ridiculous to give numbers against him much merit from that point on but in 73-74 he was still a force.

[LAZERUSS]

The league was much faster paced in 65-66 than 73-74 so rebounds are pretty even. Nate also averaged more assists in 73-74, shot much better (even compared to league average) and was much more experienced.

In 74-75 he was washed up and I agree it seems ridiculous to give numbers against him much merit from that point on but in 73-74 he was still a force.

Once again, if you claiming that Nate was near his peak in 73-74, then evidently KAJ was near his 87-88.

[GOATbe]

They'd be poor mans JaVale McGees in this era who cares.

[LAZERUSS]

They'd be poor mans JaVale McGees in this era who cares.

Evidently YOU did. You not only took the time to read the topic, you even wasted more of it by taking the time to comment on it.

[Ed Wachter]

They'd be poor mans JaVale McGees in this era who cares.