Why is Bird considered greater and ranked higher than Hakeem?

[StateOfMind12]

But then, George Mikan had the luxuries of playing against a league of really bad basketball players. Dwight Howard never had that luxury. Should we put Dwight above Mikan then?

By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?

[iamgine]

By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?

Different luxury, same advantage.

[1987_Lakers]

By luxury, I meant the fact that Bird had far superior talent around him and had far better coaching. Olajuwon did not have a good or an actual coach until Rudy T. stepped in 1992. He did have all-star caliber players until the Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

Don Chaney, the coach for Hakeem before 1992 preferred having Vernon Maxwell hoisting up shots oppose to Hakeem. You really think that coach knows what he is doing out there?

Bird had alot talent around him, but so did the teams he was playing against in the postseason. Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player. Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent. You basically needed one superstar and a bunch of role players and you would of had a shot at the title during the mid 90's. It's a fact. Ewing's Knicks, Miller's Pacers, Hakeem's Rockets, D-Rob's Spurs. These were 55-60 win teams that lacked great talent, they would have gotten smoked during the mid-late 80's.

[Round Mound]

As i said before Individual Wise Hakeem was More Dominant Player so Charles > Also Bird=? as an Individual Players Yes but as a Team Player Bird is Probably the Best Ever. The way He Turned the Celtics Franchaise. Lets Remember that Kevin McHale was Not a Starter in 81 or 84.

Barkley was Robbed from the 1990 MVP (don`t bring me the Magic thing because he had GREAT SQUAD for those Wins, They Still Make the Play-Offs After He Leaves)

PER for 3 All Stars is Also Misleading.

[Micku]

Well MVPs is a subjective award. Many people have said and felt like Hakeem and/or MJ got robbed in the 1993 MVP voting by Barkley. The MVP has had even less credibility in the past decade.

It's a example of how dominant he was in his own era, and he was more accomplish than Hakeem. Of course you do have a point about MVP is subjective. Shaq should've gotten more.

He had a very talented and stacked team especially compared to Hakeem. Bird always played with multiple all-stars on his team while Hakeem didn't play with any other than Ralph Sampson (who had his career was derailed by injuries) before 1994.

Bird already proved that it wasn't just Mchale or Parish. Bird turned a 29 win team into the best record in the league with 61 wins in his rookie season. Besides, you couldn't win in the 80s without stacked teams. The Rockets did end up beating the Lakers 86, and the Lakers around that time was one the most talented teams.

I don't think this really matters.

I think conversation for GOAT matter a bit. It shows a level of how good you are. Jordan got conversations for GOAT at his first 3peat. People really thought that Bird was the GOAT player in the mid 80s. Fast forward, Bird stepped down quite a bit and he couldn't beat Magic's Lakers in the Finals, underperform in the playoffs, and injuries did him in.

I hope this is a joke. Hakeem was far better than Bird at everything on defense.

You totally missed my point. I was saying Bird was a good post defender, not that Bird was better than Hakeem. Hakeem was better than Magic at defending, but it doesn't really make him a better team player, and impact on the floor. I was saying how Bird was a jack of all trades. He could score, rebound, pass, and an average man to man defender, good post defender, and a good help defender.

Bird was more successful yes, but you also have to take into consideration why he was more successful. He was more successful because he played with a very stacked and good supporting cast. If you look at Bird's individual numbers in the playoffs specifically in the Finals, they aren't that good and they are clearly worse than Hakeem's.

I think it was half and half. I think Bird's rookie season and the absence of Bird showed how important it Bird was to the Celtics. In his rookie season, Bird turned a 29 win team around to the best record in the league with 61 wins. Without Bird they were a 42 win team in the 88-89. With an unhealthy Bird they were a 52 win team.

Your whole thread was about why Bird was considered greater, and that was why. Like Magic, it wasn't really about stats, not about how many points you put on the board. It was about what you did to make your team win. Bird all around game helped his team won and brought the Celtics to contenders throughtout the 80s.

In terms of playoffs, I think Bird didn't play as he should . There were some times he was injured, but that happens in the game. Hakeem had some good playoff series, but he was also out more in the first round than Bird was I think. Plus, Bird had more finals. If you really want to get literal on who played better in the Finals in terms of stats, Mchale>Bird and Hakeem to me. Is Mchale better than Hakeem and Bird?

Hakeem never had the luxuries that Bird did and we shouldn't fault Hakeem for that.

You can argue that every superstar in the 80s that was successful had stacked teams and good supporting cast. Moses Malone, Dr. J, Magic, Kareem, and etc. You can argue that the Hawks in the 88 had more talent and could beat the Rockets in 94 and possibly the Rockets in 95. The Hawks had Wilkins, Moses Malone, Doc Rivers. It was a different era where you had to be stacked to win.

Like in talent and teams in the 90s was different than talent in teams in the 80s.

Part of the reason why Hakeem is not considered better than Bird to some ppl is because he wasn't as successful. There are a lot of players who we ranked like that. And Bird probably had more impact than Hakeem because of his all around game as shown in the 80s.

[StateOfMind12]

Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player.

Hakeem didn't play with garbage but it looks and seems like garbage compared to the players Bird was playing with.

Hakeem was relatively successful in the beginning of his career when he had Bill Fitch as his coach and when Ralph Sampson was around. When Sampson started getting serious injuries and Fitch left, Hakeem and the Rockets had to deal with the dark ages for the next 4 seasons with Don Chaney as their coach.

Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent.

Well the Center position was at its strongest in the 90s. He completely dominated Ewing in 1994 and he dominated the two Centers that were voted on higher All-NBA teams than he did in 1995, Shaq and Robinson that season to win the championship back to back.

Both Bird and Hakeem's peaks were 3 years. Bird was '84-'86 while Hakeem was '93-'95. Both of them came out with two titles but I would say Hakeem was far better and dominant during those 3 years than Bird was.

[TheBigVeto]

Just because Hakeem is black doesn't mean he's better than Bird.

[Shepseskaf]

Right or wrong, both Magic and Bird have been pushed higher in the all-time rankings than their actual abilities would warrant because of being given credit for resurrecting the league.

Probably most of you weren't around before they debuted, but I can tell you that it was bad. NBA games simply weren't a priority for the networks, and there were no cable channels to broadcast "specialty" sports. You could mostly find games at weird hours, as many of them were not broadcast live.

The Magic-Bird duo changed all of that -- two all-time greats, one black, one white, both enjoying a high level of success immediately.... It was a marketers dream. Dictator Stern gets credit for turning the league around, but in truth if Magic and Bird hadn't come along, the league would not be what it is today.

Magic and Bird set the table, then MJ took it from there.

[JMT]

Because he plays basketball at a greater and higher level than Hakeem.

Thread should've stopped right here.

No offense to Hakeem. Bird played the game at a higher level than all but a couple players (none of whom was named Shaq).

Lifelong Sixers fan who hated him like poison. But the truth is the truth.

[millwad]

I wouldn't mind Hakeem over Bird at all, when people compare the two of them it often comes to who won the most, which is crazy unfair considering who Bird played with.

And one of Bird's rings came in '81, his teammates that year were;

Robert Parish (All-star that year and a HOF:er, top 50 ever)
Cedric Maxwell (Won the Finals MVP that year)
Tiny Archibald (All-star that year and HOF:er, top 50 ever)
Mchale (HOF:er but wasn't in his prime)

And they faced fairly weak competition, first a 45-37 Bulls team, then they won against a good Philly team but Bird still had more talent around him than what Julius had and in the finals they faced a Houston Rocket team (pre Akeem) who had a freaking loosing record that season.

The rest of Birds rings came when he had prime prime McHale, prime Parish, HOF:er Dennis Johnson and great role players like Ainge and Maxwell next to him. It's pretty remarkable that people actually compare the amount of rings Bird won with the amount of rings Hakeem won.

Hakeem won his rings without any all-stars (Clyde wasn't on the all-star team in '95) and they had huge gaps in their roster and he never had the luxury to be able to win without being the FMVP..

If Hakeem would have had all-time greats like McHale, Parish and Johnson next to him among many other all-stars he'd be ranked higher as well..

[millwad]

Bird had alot talent around him, but so did the teams he was playing against in the postseason. Let's not act like Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came in the league he was coached by Bill Fitch, a HOFer, and he reached the Finals in his 2nd year as a player. Hakeem won with less talent around him, but keep in mind the competition he was going up against had EQUAL talent. You basically needed one superstar and a bunch of role players and you would of had a shot at the title during the mid 90's. It's a fact. Ewing's Knicks, Miller's Pacers, Hakeem's Rockets, D-Rob's Spurs. These were 55-60 win teams that lacked great talent, they would have gotten smoked during the mid-late 80's.

Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came to the league he was drafted by a team who won 29 games prior to his arrival. After Hakeem's arrival they were suddenly a 48 win team and then a 51 win team.

The same Hakeem in his 2nd year as a pro lead his team to the finals against Bird and the Celtics. That same year Hakeem in his 2nd year as a pro abused your beloved Lakers in the playoffs and was unstoppable and lead his Rocket team to an easy 4-1 win in the series against the Lakers.

And lets not forget that the '86 Rockets didn't even have a true point guard, John Lucas went down and they had to put the forward Reid at the point guard spot. Sure, they were a talented team but not as talented as the '86 Lakers and Hakeem in '86 had no where close to the amount of talent around him compared to Bird.

And that was a prime Bird vs a 23 year old Hakeem and still Hakeem lead his Rocket team all the way to game 6 vs one of the best teams of all-time. Bird in that series had McHale who dominated like crazy and averaged 25 points per game in that series and DJ averaged 17 points, 6 rebounds and 5 assists per game in that series. And he still had Parish by his side along with great role players like Ainge and Walton..

Olajuwon as a 2nd year pro competed against prime Bird at his best with a worse team... I have no doubt in my mind that prime Hakeem was on the same level as Bird.

[JMT]

Hakeem played with garbage, when he first came to the league he was drafted by a team who won 29 games prior to his arrival. After Hakeem's arrival they were suddenly a 48 win team and then a 51 win team.

.

Hakeem stepped into the league playing next to Ralph Sampson. They were as feared a young front court as the league has seen since.

[gengiskhan]

Hakeem: 1 MVP
Bird: 3 MVPs

Hakeem: 0 Back-2-Back MVPs
Bird: 3 Back-2-back-2-back MVPs

Hakeem: 2 Rings
Bird: 3 Rings

Hakeem: Lost ROY honors to GOAT
Bird: Beat GOAT for ROY honors.

Hakeem: 1 DPOY
Bird: 0 DPOY

Hakeem: Rings overrated because of GOATs absense in 1994 & 1995.
Bird: Beat GOAT once in the Final & Other 2 Won in GOAT Magics prime.

Bird: more clutch. more impact player without ball
Hakeem: all time great center no doubt.

Bird > Hakeem.

GOAT list

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Russell

Bird Top 5 easily
Hakeem Top 6 as highest GOAT slot.

[Jotaro Durant]

kaj
wilt
mj
magic
bird
shaq
bryant
olajuwon
duncan
oscar

[ralph_i_el]

Bird was not a Better Individual player Hakeem had a Highe PER. Same with Barkley he was a Better Individual Player than Bird but Bird was a PLAYER THAT MADE OTHERS BETTER MORE THAN ANY PLAYER. Its a 5-5 Game so as a Team Player Bird was Better.

on open court they were talking about how hakeem was an amazing teammate especially for covering for teammates in PnR. Just a thought