Manu Ginobili is better than Hakeem Olajuwon

[ImKobe]

Ah, so now efficiency matters? Lol.

Nonetheless, if scoring and TS% were all that mattered, then yeah. However, they don't. Defense, rebounding, they matter just as much. 21/14 with elite defense on a team that won with defense. Seems about right. If those are the criteria you go by, you must think Porker deserved FMVP over Timmy in 2007 too.

What does that last sentence have to do with this?

Duncan was terrible in that series and got bailed out. Do you remember Game 5? 1/4 from the FT line in the last minute to give Detroit a chance to win in OT. Horry scores 18 pts in 4th + OT and hits the game-winner.

4th quarter stats

Manu 6 ppg 46/38/88 +2
Horry 4.2 ppg 63/63/100 +2.3
Duncan 4.3 ppg 38/0/42 -0.2

I'm sorry, but nothing about that series screamed MVP for Duncan. It's not like he shut down Sheed and Ben Wallace for the series. He had two good games to start the series and played badly for the rest of it. They're lucky not to get backdoor swept.

[tontoz]

I think Hakeem might have become a bit overrated over the years. He could be a black hole and settled for tough jumpers too often.

But Bayless is clearly trolling.

[tontoz]

He's better than dirk, i agree with that.Never seen Hakeem play but appearently big wiggle is a poor man's version of him....Im rolling with the dream hands down.

Manu > Dirk tho

Dirk was a career choker and 2011 seems to make people forget.Manu never folded like dirk

Huh? Dirk was a beast in the playoffs, 25/10 with a TS of 58% for his career in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

spain was actually loaded though... manu's team wasn't

I guess it depends on the year you mean. In 02 Pau beat a team USA with 9 nba all stars and he had Navarro, Calderon, and Garbajosa as the only nba players. Argentina had 7 NBA players in 2004. By 06 and in 08 Spain was loaded though. They had 8 NBA players by then. Not that the only standard is how many NBA players you have....but if you have 9 guys in the NBA you probably have a great international team you know?

Carlos Arroyo beat America and Spain though. Also beat Yugoslavia who had 7 NBA players(2 of them all stars) and Dejan Bodiroga who just chose not to come over. Did it as Puerto Ricos only NBA player.

International ball is weird like that at times.

[kennethgriffen]

I guess it depends on the year you mean. In 02 Pau beat a team USA with 9 nba all stars and he had Navarro, Calderon, and Garbajosa as the only nba players. Argentina had 7 NBA players in 2004. By 06 and in 08 Spain was loaded though. They had 8 NBA players by then. Not that the only standard is how many NBA players you have....but if you have 9 guys in the NBA you probably have a great international team you know?

Carlos Arroyo beat America and Spain though. Also beat Yugoslavia who had 7 NBA players(2 of them all stars) and Dejan Bodiroga who just chose not to come over. Did it as Puerto Ricos only NBA player.

International ball is weird like that at times.

nobody cares about 02

the USA sent the worst team i've ever seen assembled


antonio davis
lafrentz
andre miller
jermaine oneal
jay williams
brand
finley
retired reggie lmao



canada coulda beat those bums

[Ghost1]

I guess it depends on the year you mean. In 02 Pau beat a team USA with 9 nba all stars and he had Navarro, Calderon, and Garbajosa as the only nba players. Argentina had 7 NBA players in 2004. By 06 and in 08 Spain was loaded though. They had 8 NBA players by then. Not that the only standard is how many NBA players you have....but if you have 9 guys in the NBA you probably have a great international team you know?

Carlos Arroyo beat America and Spain though. Also beat Yugoslavia who had 7 NBA players(2 of them all stars) and Dejan Bodiroga who just chose not to come over. Did it as Puerto Ricos only NBA player.

International ball is weird like that at times.

Daniel Santiago was a NBA player.

Greece beat team USA in 2006 without without NBA players.

[Kblaze8855]

nobody cares about 02

the USA sent the worst team i've ever seen assembled


antonio davis
lafrentz
andre miller
jermaine oneal
jay williams
brand
finley
retired reggie lmao



canada coulda beat those bums

If those guys plus prime Pierce, Baron Davis, Marion, and Ben Wallace are bums what are the teams with 1-2 fringe players who beat them?

Those years? 2000-06? Really showed you cant look at talent as simply as we thought. Even in 08 with 8 hall of famers, 3 all stars, and a great role player(Prince) we got tested.

Just didnt play ideal team ball.

[Kblaze8855]

Daniel Santiago was a NBA player.

Greece beat team USA in 2006 without without NBA players.

I was thinking Carlos had that one big stiff that looked like a caveman too but I cant remember his name.

I remember Arroyo was just clowning. Hitting Melo and Wade with ball fakes and floaters. Strutting around talking shit. On ISH we were all wondering what happens back in the NBA. If hed get more respect....and he just meekly accepted his role again.

[kennethgriffen]

If those guys plus prime Pierce, Baron Davis, Marion, and Ben Wallace are bums what are the teams with 1-2 fringe players who beat them?

Those years? 2000-06? Really showed you cant look at talent as simply as we thought. Even in 08 with 8 hall of famers, 3 all stars, and a great role player(Prince) we got tested.

Just didnt play ideal team ball.

bums


it was their C team


everyone knows that the only way to match international teams chemistry/cohesiveness/execution from playing together their whole lives is to put together the best talent the US has to offer


when you put a few good players with a bunch of average dudes its not enough. americas iso ball and 1 mentality morons from back in the day can't lead a squad like that over a well oiled euro club

[FKAri]

I guess it depends on the year you mean. In 02 Pau beat a team USA with 9 nba all stars and he had Navarro, Calderon, and Garbajosa as the only nba players. Argentina had 7 NBA players in 2004. By 06 and in 08 Spain was loaded though. They had 8 NBA players by then. Not that the only standard is how many NBA players you have....but if you have 9 guys in the NBA you probably have a great international team you know?

Carlos Arroyo beat America and Spain though. Also beat Yugoslavia who had 7 NBA players(2 of them all stars) and Dejan Bodiroga who just chose not to come over. Did it as Puerto Ricos only NBA player.

International ball is weird like that at times.

Synergy and variance is certainly a part of it but it also provides a glimpse into the fact that if you change the rules of the game, even a little, it can really alter player performance. This is why I don't buy the "he's a star he would've figured it out in any era", narrative. Everyone's impact would be different in another era. Some, drastically so. Some, not so much.

[Euroleague]

Who saved that series?

Manu 19 ppg 64%TS
Duncan 21 ppg 47%TS (worst by a finals MVP in the modern era)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqdBeYXx4L0

Manu also beat Duncan in the Olympics with a much worse team.

Yeah but everyone was beating that 2004 USA team...

Italy
Puerto Rico
Lithuania
Argentina

refs helped USA to barely beat Spain and Greece in games they should have also lost...

[Euroleague]

spain was actually loaded though... manu's team wasn't

WTF are you talking about? Argentina was loaded from around 2002 to 2008.

[kennethgriffen]

WTF are you talking about? Argentina was loaded from around 2002 to 2008.

na

[Euroleague]

I guess it depends on the year you mean. In 02 Pau beat a team USA with 9 nba all stars and he had Navarro, Calderon, and Garbajosa as the only nba players. Argentina had 7 NBA players in 2004. By 06 and in 08 Spain was loaded though. They had 8 NBA players by then. Not that the only standard is how many NBA players you have....but if you have 9 guys in the NBA you probably have a great international team you know?

Carlos Arroyo beat America and Spain though. Also beat Yugoslavia who had 7 NBA players(2 of them all stars) and Dejan Bodiroga who just chose not to come over. Did it as Puerto Ricos only NBA player.

International ball is weird like that at times.

Spanoulis beat

Spain (at peak years)
Yugoslavia (at peak years)
Lithuania (at peak years)
USA
Russia (at peak years)
Serbia (at peak years)
Croatia (at peak years)
Slovenia (at peak years)
France (at peak years)

and so on. Hell, other than USA he beat them all on multiple occasions, and beat several of them many times.

He also beat Arroyo and Puerto Rico 3 times.

International ball isn't "weird". It was the way the Warriors play, but years before that ever became a thing in the NBA (which obviously the Warriors copied from FIBA).

If you have a dominant lead guard in FIBA, good defense, a physical and athletic team, with a couple rebounders, and a couple shooters, you can win against anyone, as long as that guard goes off.

That's why teams like Lithuania and Greece (Jasikevicius and Spanoulis) were so good at those years, despite having much less talent overall than teams like Spain or Yugoslavia.

France on the other hand, was never as good as it should have been, because Parker's lack of outside shooting was always a weakness.

[Euroleague]

bums


it was their C team


everyone knows that the only way to match international teams chemistry/cohesiveness/execution from playing together their whole lives is to put together the best talent the US has to offer


when you put a few good players with a bunch of average dudes its not enough. americas iso ball and 1 mentality morons from back in the day can't lead a squad like that over a well oiled euro club

This is one of the most ridiculous lies ever created by NBA only fans.

A very few international teams have guys playing together for a long time (Spain, Brazil, Argentina) - that't is.

Zero teams have guys playing "together their whole lives".

A lot of European national teams are turning over 5-10 players a year.

Some of these excuses from NBA fans are so absurd.