Bill Russell talking about the mental game of basketball. Great read.

[ClipperRevival]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc5wizzVVC8

I'm sure some of you already saw this but Bill Simmons did a piece on Russell a few years back. It gives you an insight on what type of mindset he had. Very prideful man who didn't want anything given to him.

[LAZERUSS]

The more I study Russell/Wilt, the more I am realizing that Wilt was more of a "let me get mine" type of guy and Russell was the, "I could care less about stats, I want to win" type of guy.

Wilt lost to Russell 5 times in game 7s in the playoffs by a combined total of 9 points. And the two that are completely unforgiveable are his loses in 1968 and 1969, which were Russell's last 2 years in the league. In both seasons, Wilt's 76ers (1968) and Lakers (1969) had the HCA and were perceived to be the far superior teams. Yet, Wilt let his team lose game 7 both times, at HOME.

They don't call him the "Big Dipper" for nothing. The guy disappeared when it mattered most. He could've easily had 4-5 rings and had Russell's ring count down to 7-8 and made this debate much more interesting. But as it stands, it's 2 to 11.

1968...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=13

BTW, a Wilt who was NOTICEABLY LIMPING that entire series, slaughtered Russell in game five of that series...which, would have been the clincher had Wilt's badly injured teammates contributed anything in that game (he outscored Russell, 28-8, outrbounded Russell, 30-24, and outshot Russell, 11-21 to 4-10.)

1969...

No doubt Wilt's worst post-season series of his entire career.

BUT, in game seven, Chamberlain wiped the floor with Russell. BTW, Russell completely disappeared in the 4th quarter of that game seven. In fact, Wilt pulled down as many rebounds on his injured leg, two, in two straight sequences, as Russell did in the entire quarter. Oh, and Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in that 4th quarter, 7-2...despite missing the last five minutes of that game. For the game, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 18-6; outrebounded Russell, 27-21; and outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7. One more thing...remove Wilt and Russell's FG%'s in that game, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a staggering .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win!

Overall, in their eight post-season H2H's, Chamberlain dramatically outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell by a huge margin. In fact, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY one of those eight series, and some by eye-popping margins.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt really had a chance to cement his status as the GOAT right there with MJ. But he came up short when it mattered most and let 4-5 additional rings get past his fingertips. He lost 5 playoff series to Russell's Celtics that went to 7 games. Five of them and lost them all. That's a 5 ring swing right there!!!!

And this is exactly why there is such a thing as clutchness and choking. What good are all those individual numbers if you shrink when it matters most? Isn't the point of playing to win?

So a Chamberlain taking his 40-40 roster, that had gone 34-46 the year before without him, and missed the playoffs...to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, ...in a series in which Chamberlain outscored Russell per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outhsot Russell from the floor in the series by a .555 to .447 margin; and even outshot Russell from the line by a .583 to .472 margin...is what you consider "choking?"

BTW, in that game seven, one point loss, Chamberlain scored Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and then a dunk over a helpless Russell with 5 secs left to pull Philly to within 110-109. Oh, and then the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, and gave the ball back to the Sixers under their basket. Only "Havlicek stole the ball!" prevented the Sixers from the biggest playoff upset in NBA history. Oh, and in that game seven...Chamberlain outscored Russell, 30-15; outrebounded Russell, 32-29; and outshot Russell from the field, 12-15 to 7-16.

Of course, Chamberlain was dominating Russell in the vast majority of their post-season games and series. How many "must win" games did Russell outscore Wilt by margins of 50-22 and 46-18?

And one more time...I have never gotten a decent response on this even ONE TIME...

In the '66 EDF's, Wilt's Sixers were down 3-1, and facing elimination (oh, an for the series, Chamberlain shot .509 from the floor, while his teammates collectively shot...get this... .352!) In the clinching game five loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 46-18, and outrebounded him, 34-31.

Fast forward to the next season.

Now it was Russell's Celtics who were down 3-1, and facing elimination. Did Russell erupt for a 46 point game on Chamberlain? Hell no! He quietly led his lambs to slaughter with a FOUR point game. How come? Where was this Russell who "owned" Wilt in the post-season? BTW, Chamberlain hung 29 points on Russell in that game...22 of which came in the first half when the game was still close (meaning, that had he needed to, he could have easily hung 40 on Russell.) Not only that, but Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 36-21; outshot him, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted him, 13-7; and even found time to block seven shots.

Yep...Wilt "the choker."

[LAZERUSS]

Or how about 1970 against the Knicks. Sure, the Knicks had the better team but playing against a hobbled Willie Reed in game 7, he should've been more aggressive. He scores 21 points and 1/11 from the FT. In game 6, he scored 45 points so he was capable of doing more. He just didn't go after it. This is what betas do. They don't have that killer instinct. They can't sense when they have a wounded animal and go for the kill.

I tell you what Clipper...

Find me another player who even played the same season with MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. And then, find me a player who not only played that same season following MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, but who then put up a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shot .625 from the field. Or who put up "must win" games of 45-27 (on 20-27 shooting) and 21-24 (on 10-16 from the field.)

Oh, and when Reed was injured in the last three games of that series (after being in far better shape in the first four games)...a one legged Wilt outscored him, 88-11, outrebounded him, 71-3, and outshot him, 39-55 to 4-10. And somehow Reed won the FMVP???!!! Just a DISGRACE!

[Asukal]

Russell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ILt

Not even a debate really. 11 to 2? That's murder.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ILt

Not even a debate really. 11 to 2? That's murder.

Like Dumars' 3-1 margin over MJ.

Dumars >>>>>>>>>>>>> mj

Hell, Jordan couldn't even win a playoff game against Bird (0-6!)...

[LAZERUSS]

Russell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ILt

Not even a debate really. 11 to 2? That's murder.

How about this...

It doesn't work that way. You are claiming Russell was greater than Wilt by his 11-2 margin in rings. Russell actually held a 9-1 margin in TEAM rings from '60 thru '69 over Wilt's TEAMs, and a 7-1 margin in H2H TEAM wins.

So, if you are going to use that RIDICULOUS argument, then let the game's begin. And remember, these losses are directly blamed on the player, and not the TEAM:

Bird:

'80: Beaten badly by Dr. J, 4-1 in the '80 ECF's.
'82: Beaten by Dr. J in the '80 ECF's.
'83: Downright embarrassing. SWEPT by Marques Johnson.
'85: Easily whipped by Worthy in Finals.
'87: Blown apart by Worthy in the Finals.
'88: Shelled by Dantley in the '88 ECF's (shot .351 BTW.)
'90: Outplayed by Johnny Newman in first round loss
'91: Taken to task by Mark Aguirre.
'92: Someone by the name of Larry Sanders easily beats Bird.

BTW, as a sidenote, Bird only went 1-2 against the Bad Boys, and 1-2 against the Lakers (and in reality, it should have been 0-3.)


Kareem:

'70: Shelled by Reed in the ECF's.
'72: Dominated by WILT in the WCF's.
'73: Completely shutdown by Thurmond in the first round.
'74: Beaten by a 6-9 white red-head (and Cowens did outplay him in game 7)
'75: Kareem plays so poorly his team doesn't make the playoffs.
'76: Again, this career loser single-handedly keeps his team from making the playoffs.
'77: SWEPT by Walton in WCF's.
'78: Routed by Webster in the first round.
'79: Routed by Sikma in the second round.
'81: Single-handedly takes his 54-28 Lakers down the drain against Moses' 40-42 Rockets (in a series in which Moses just crushed him.)
'83: Meets Moses again...but this time Moses has even more help. A SWEEPING loss, all while getting annihilated by Moses.
'84: Beaten by Parish.
'86: Beaten badly by Sampson.
'89: Laimbeer almost shuts him out.

Furthermore, KAJ won his only ring in the '70's with the easiest ride to a title in NBA history (and was outplayed by Wilt in the '71 WCF's.) And he doesn't even play in the clinching road win in '80 (as Magic leads the Lakers to the title.) He is then a second banana from '82 thru '85. From '86 thru '87, he is the third wheel. And in his last title, his Lakers win DESPITE his awful play.


Jordan:

'85: Beaten by Ricky Pierce.
'86: Swept by Danny Ainge.
'87: Again, swept by Ainge.
'88: Blown away by Dumars.
'89: Easily beaten by Dumars.
'90: Again...beaten by Dumars.
'91: Finally beats Dumars.
'94: Knows he can't win, and quits. team goes 55-27 without and loses a close game seven to the 56-26 Knicks, who go on to lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets.
'95: Comes back but is badly beaten by Nick Anderson.

Oh, and how about Hakeem? While Wilt was "losing" to Russell in nine seasons...

'85: Blown out in the first round by Eaton
'86: Beaten by Parish
'87: Easily beaten in the second round by Alton Lister.
'88: SWEPT in first round by James Donaldson
'89: Beaten in the first round by Olden Polynice
'90: Beaten in the first round by Mychal Thompson (
'91: SWEPT in the first round by Divac.
'92: Single-handedly prevents his team from even making the playoffs.
'93: Beaten by Michael Cage
'96: SWEPT in the second round by Sam Perkins.
'97: Beaten by Greg Ostertag in the WCF's.
'98: Beaten by Greg Foster in the first round.
'99: Absolutely slaughtered by Shaq in the first round.
'00: Single-handedly keeps his team from making the playoffs.
'01: See above.
'02: Wiped out by Ben Wallace in the first round.


Furthermore...

MJ: LOST in NINE seasons.
Bird: LOST in TEN seasons.
Duncan: LOST in 12 seasons.
Kobe: LOST in 12 seasons.
Oscar: LOST in 13 seasons.
West: LOST in 13 seasons.
Baylor: LOST in 13 seasons.
Kareem: LOST in 14 seasons
Shaq: LOST in 15 seasons.
Hakeem: LOST in 16 seasons.

What a bunch of pathetic losers.


The REALITY was, Russell's CELTICS beat Wilt's TEAMS. Furthermore, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in one series, and beat him like a red-headed step child in their seven other H2H playoff series (including carrying his TEAM to a dominating win over Russell's eight-time defending Celtics in '67.)

[Asukal]

How about this...

How bout 11 to 2 rings? Murdered and butchered like poultry chicken.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I've been reading a great deal about Russell the last little bit, and one thing jumps out at me:

He was an absolute basketball genius. He talks a lot about his mental edge in terms of trying to get in the head of the other player, but his true mental edge was the fact that he was simply one of those players that were just purely geniuses among their peers.

And it's strange to me that he wasn't as successful as a coach. But I guess it's one of those things where being a basketball brain is only part of it.

[Lebron23]

And also having a stacked team for most of his NBA Career. It sucks that they only had 8-10 teams during his era. In the modern era he won't be the best player in the league while having a sub par offensive game. He would still get paid because he was a good rebounder, and shot blocker.

[ShaqTwizzle]

double post~~

[ShaqTwizzle]

Russell was good at containing Chamberlain.

Wilt @ Russell
Playoffs

1960 : 30ppg on .50%TS
1962 : 33ppg on .49%TS
1964 : 29ppg on .51%TS
1966 : 28ppg on .49%TS
1968 : 22ppg on .49%TS
1969 : 11ppg on .47%TS

Russ shut him down.

[GimmeThat]

how would I have coached Wilt?

I would have told him
'you should have been training with your basketball teammates and f*cking with your celebrity friends, not training with your celebrity friends and f*cking with your teammates'


nah, still would have went 2-11

[ClipperRevival]

1968...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=13

BTW, a Wilt who was NOTICEABLY LIMPING that entire series, slaughtered Russell in game five of that series...which, would have been the clincher had Wilt's badly injured teammates contributed anything in that game (he outscored Russell, 28-8, outrbounded Russell, 30-24, and outshot Russell, 11-21 to 4-10.)

1969...

No doubt Wilt's worst post-season series of his entire career.

BUT, in game seven, Chamberlain wiped the floor with Russell. BTW, Russell completely disappeared in the 4th quarter of that game seven. In fact, Wilt pulled down as many rebounds on his injured leg, two, in two straight sequences, as Russell did in the entire quarter. Oh, and Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in that 4th quarter, 7-2...despite missing the last five minutes of that game. For the game, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 18-6; outrebounded Russell, 27-21; and outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7. One more thing...remove Wilt and Russell's FG%'s in that game, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a staggering .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win!

Overall, in their eight post-season H2H's, Chamberlain dramatically outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell by a huge margin. In fact, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY one of those eight series, and some by eye-popping margins.

1968 and 1969 are the two seasons that really stick out and Wilt should've won both of these chips over Russell. But he didn't. And history is judging him accordingly.

In 1968, his team is up 3-1. You need to close that out.

In 1969, the Lakers clearly had the superior team and no one expected Boston to win, no one. And Wilt's Lakers had HCA and were up 3-2 and lost game 7 at home by 2 points. He shot 1-11 from the FT line in game 7.

And in both years, Russell was player/coach. This was his last 2 years in the league and he still beat Wilt twice, both in game 7s, both come from behind, both without HCA.

Come on man. How many more excuses can you give the guy? Wilt should've at least made the ring count 4 to 9 instead of 2 to 11. But he didn't.

[ClipperRevival]

I tell you what Clipper...

Find me another player who even played the same season with MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. And then, find me a player who not only played that same season following MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, but who then put up a seven game Finals of 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shot .625 from the field. Or who put up "must win" games of 45-27 (on 20-27 shooting) and 21-24 (on 10-16 from the field.)

Oh, and when Reed was injured in the last three games of that series (after being in far better shape in the first four games)...a one legged Wilt outscored him, 88-11, outrebounded him, 71-3, and outshot him, 39-55 to 4-10. And somehow Reed won the FMVP???!!! Just a DISGRACE!

Again, if the guy is healthy enough to score 45 points in game 6, he is healthy enough to be more assertive in game 7. He was very passive in that game. Played like this wasn't game 7 for the championship but a regular pick up game. His body language was all wrong.

This wasn't as bad as 1968 and 1969 because the Knicks had the superior team but he had a wounded opponent in Reed and his killer instinct should've kicked in and he should've went after it.