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Old 01-08-2011, 02:33 AM   #121
Nevaeh
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.



jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:42 AM   #122
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by Nevaeh
[/b]

jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.

Exactly why Regul8ter posted that article.

I guess the only big games Jordan played in, were the ones in which his teams won the finals.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:57 AM   #123
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

MJ 4 now.. soon JOHN WALL
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:15 AM   #124
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
Regarding this subject, there was something one sports historian wrote that is applicable considering many of the posts usually made when this comes up. I've read his work, and while I don't agree with everything he's said, he has a point in this particular instance:

Quote:
Baseball’s “myths” and “fabrications” are the very essence of the diamond sport and thus the glue of its wondrous and sustaining history. Ball fans cling to such cherished fabrications as the Abner Doubleday “invention” myth; the heroics of Babe Ruth’s “called” home run shot during the 1932 World Series; the inspired tale of Jackie Robinson’s painful pioneering role as the first black American allowed to play big-league baseball; and dozens more such staples of baseball’s irrepressible folklore.

Little matter that such quaint historical vignettes are indeed all “myths” in the most pejorative sense of the term, and that all are thus more or less false accounts of the game’s verifiable on-field record. Doubleday never fondled a stitched baseball nor set foot upon a diamond-shaped ball field; Ruth was clearly pointing at bench jockeys in the Chicago Cubs’ dugout (reminding that he still had one swing remaining) and not at the center-field bleachers (warning of where the next delivery might land); Robinson was the first African-American to cross the 20th-century baseball color line, but he was neither the first nonwhite during the current century (several dark-skinned Cubans got there first) nor the first African-American “black” from the full history of organized baseball. Such cheerful distortions of the historical record are, after all, the ingrained fabric of the game itself. They are the necessary fanciful tales of a sport built upon the muscular shoulders of folklore—tales passed down from generation to generation as a living legacy of a game that is far more the stuff of truth-bending legends, dusty records, and shadowy ephemeral memories than it is of spellbinding game action itself.

Basketball—with its less visible historical overtones—seemingly has only one such sustaining myth to its credit. And this, as it turns out, is a fabrication of rather recent origins. It is the well-endowed “Jordan Supremacy Myth,” which boldly claims that Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player ever to lace up a pair of high-top sneakers or shoot at modern versions of Dr. Naismith’s primitive peach baskets.

This modern-day Jordan Myth goes so far as to suggest that no one else even approximates Chicago’s heralded superstar when it comes to tabbing the most talented cage paragon ever to dribble, feint, or slam-dunk. It is well-worn liturgy in the Chicagoland sporting press and standard staple among fans and writers just about everywhere else to boot. Of course, for crusty old-timers who have paid attention to the game’s evolution across several decades or more, the Jordan Supremacy Myth (at least the part that says that no possible rivals exist to the Airness Throne) is just as much fabrication as the Babe Ruth “called shot” or Abner Doubledays’s pioneering efforts in Cooperstown.

Despite Jordan’s on-court greatness over a decade and a half, the claims for unrivaled superiority across the entire game’s history seemingly carry a strong aroma of unsubstantial myth-making. This appears to be the case for at least each and every one of the following reasons. Support for such a claim, first off, has been nurtured from the start by the constant drone of public relations geniuses, product pitchmen, and media “talking heads” (of which there are many), and not by the measured and cautious analyses of legitimate basketball historians (of whom there are shamefully few). Evidence—where hard evidence is ever cited—comes heavily in the form of standards for excellence that are skewed entirely toward the current fan preferences of style (showy individual offensive maneuvers and powerful slam dunking) and ignores highly valued skills that formed the standard for early eras (viz., constrained control of individual offensive talents, complete and balanced offensive and defensive skills, rock-solid fundamentals, and team-oriented play). Little or no consideration is given to numerous mitigating factors that contribute mightily to Jordan’s dominance over today’s game (for starters: a weakened league with few solid teams and little team-oriented play; the abandonment of “traveling” as an offensive violation; a dearth of rival contemporary stars to share Jordan’s throne the way Bird and Erving shared Magic Johnson’s, and Chamberlain, Russell, West, and Baylor shared Oscar Robertson’s). And finally, the “myth” of Air Jordan’s unrivaled superiority over all past-era stars may also share the more negative sense of the term as well—that is, it simply isn’t altogether true.

The claim for Jordan’s unquestioned rank above all previous legends of the game (namely Chamberlain, Robertson, Russell, Baylor, Bird, and Magic Johnson) is also likely one doomed to erode as time lapses and as historical perspective gradually returns to the basketball scene. The problem is, of course, that most basketball fans—and most professional basketball commentators as well—have flocked to the winter sport only during a past decade crowded with the feats of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Air Jordan. Earlier stars of hoopdom, for all their one-time appeal to the smaller coterie of pre-1980s basketball fans, have almost no hold on the modern fan’s imagination. Certainly not in a manner that would parallel the legendary giants of baseball or even the past-era stars of the gridiron sport of football. Every diamond fan, to cite the obvious example, is weaned on stories of Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Walter Johnson, or at least on tales of Mantle, DiMaggio, Aaron, and Willie Mays. Basketball fanatics are indeed few who can conjure up even a handful of names of the largest pro or college stars from the ’50s, ’60s, or ’70s.

One downside of current runaway NBA popularity is clearly this near-total loss of historical perspective. Chicago’s Jordan-era Bulls with their string of championship victories and record-breaking win-loss ledgers provide one stark example. (Chicago’s six championships over eight seasons, in what is arguably a watered-down league, is blithely assumed to outstrip Boston’s truer dynastic run of eight straight NBA crowns.) Jordan himself provides another. Memory is indeed quite short in a sport where heavily marketed contemporary court celebrities like Shaq O’Neal, Karl Malone, and Scottie Pippen are enshrined over some of the game’s most important pioneers (Bob Davies and George Yardley, for example) on the NBA’s own official Golden Anniversary list of “Fifty Greatest” players of all time.

In Jordan’s case the issue is not at all whether MJ is one of the true greats ever to play the game. That fact has been well established by the highest career scoring average to date, as well as by runaway fan popularity that knows no parallel in league annals (and perhaps even in the annals of American sports history at large). Jordan may indeed even be the best ever to play the game. Certainly he is without challenge as the lone candidate for enshrinement as basketball’s most celebrated all-time megastar. But this does not necessarily mean—as advocates of today’s version of the sport endlessly crow—that Jordan does not have legitimate rivals for the title of all-time best. Most popular or most celebrated does not always neatly equate with most deeply talented—in any sporting arena or any walk of life. When it comes to assessing Jordan’s legitimate rivals, the field is a bit more crowded than might appear to be the case at first blush.


*waits for the knee-jerk reactions from people who won't bother to completely read what he said*

Exactly every true basketball fan should at least read that once and try to digest what he is saying.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:00 PM   #125
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by wpdougie2180
Exactly every true basketball fan should at least read that once and try to digest what he is saying.

wpdougie, it was a good read and everything, but the title of the thread STILL remains "Who is the Greatest of All Time For You?

If people list Jordan and give legit reasons why, that only pertain to the game itself and not shoe commercials, then what's the friggin problem? "No No NO, see MJ CAN'T be your favorite because.....um, lets see........let me bring out my tons of stat sheets here......... yes, see Player X once dunked from the 3-point line blind folded, while scoring 50 points off of offensive rebounds alone.

Look, if people have a Favorite, that's cool. If the reason is legit, cool. But people can't be getting mad because certain players aren't chosen as THE BEST in a thread like this. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I won't slam people who have him as number one in a thread that's a personal preference kind of thing.

However, if they bring arguments like "Kobe could've 3-peated in 91-93 with the Bulls", then people should expect someone to step in and debate that claim. This thread for me is basically learning the reason why people pick a certain player, and I can respect that fully.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #126
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

Wilt Chamberlain


personal favorite- Magic Johnson
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:34 PM   #127
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:18 PM   #128
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.

Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:23 PM   #129
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by Niquesports
Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.

Thanks Nique for the critique! I created a separate post on the coach thing so I'll joint you there on that. I don't have Shaq in my top five. I agree with you about Shaq, Kobe and the Big O.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:26 PM   #130
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

Magic Johnson.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:30 PM   #131
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

KAJ
Duncan
Shaq
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:38 PM   #132
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:41 PM   #133
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by jlauber
Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:44 PM   #134
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Default Re: Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

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Originally Posted by Duncan21formvp
And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000

I am currently posting my reply to this "decline" in another thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=165643&page=6
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