Robert Horry "Michael Jordan feared Hakeem"

[Mr Feeny]

Bulls win in 94 with MJ. You had a still prime Jordan, Scottie at his peak, Horace Grant and BJ coming into their primes, with substantial bench upgrades in Kukoc, Kerr , Wennington with Cartwright, Perdue, Paxson hanging around as the old guard. The Rockers barely beat the Knicks with Ewing getting outplayed by Dream and Starks fukking up in game 7. The Bulls offense would be exponentially better on top of great defense. 95 without Grant leaves the frontline thin, combined with the strain of going for a 5-peat are the likely biggest factors in Chicago not beating the Rockets assuming they even get to the finals. Even if MJ never left and had a greater degree of familiarity with his teammates, the Magic still provide a formidable obstacle should they still end up playing them.

Pretty much agree with all of this. Chicago might have still lost in 95 even had Jordan not retired. I'm on the fence with that one.

[Da_Realist]

Had the Rockets either beat the Bulls or pushed them to 7 games, the Bulls would have returned intact. Fully ready to avenge their loss or prove the win was no fluke. That would have been the challenge MJ needed to stay in the league.

[dankok8]

But the 1995 Bulls were worse in large part because Jordan wasn't in basketball shape. They still came close to beating the Magic. The other obvious factor is that Grant was gone and they hadn't replaced him yet.

Who knows whether a Jordan with a full training camp and season under his belt would have been enough to flip the result. I believe that it would have been the case but we could just as easily say that fatigue would have played a role after so many consecutive trips to the finals.

MJ wasn't in such bad shape. He put up 55 at MSG a few games after coming back and averaged 30+ in the playoffs. No Grant was a big factor though and I was assuming identical rosters. I don't see the 1995 Bulls winning a title against the Rockets.

[Norcaliblunt]

Phoenix should have wrapped it up in 5. Barkley’s missed FTs, and that Wesley Person shot that was about an inch of 2 off.

Exactly!!! Nobody ever brings up the fact that Barkley choked that series away in game 5 with his missed FT’s. The Suns who were missing Danny Manning due to knee injury were on the verge of closing out this 95 Rockets team in 5 games. I have hard time believing Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, and the Bulls choke against Houston.

[Elosha]

But the 1995 Bulls were worse in large part because Jordan wasn't in basketball shape. They still came close to beating the Magic. The other obvious factor is that Grant was gone and they hadn't replaced him yet.

Who knows whether a Jordan with a full training camp and season under his belt would have been enough to flip the result. I believe that it would have been the case but we could just as easily say that fatigue would have played a role after so many consecutive trips to the finals.

This is true. People look at Jordan's overall stats and think, he was just as good in 95 after coming out of retirement. But he wasn't. His wind was not as good, his ballhandling and finishing ability slightly off, his shot was flatter, and he was -- for the only time in his entire career -- tentative in the clutch. His reflexes and his endurance had trained for baseball for two years, and he was no spring chicken coming back out of retirement at 33. And he really had not enough time to adjust to his new teammates such as Kukoc, and vice versa. The Bulls were very good with Jordan but not great. And of course losing Horace plus having to play against him was a double blow in the ECF semifinals.

You can see how all of this affected him in the playoffs. It wasn't just Jordan getting the ball stolen by Nick Anderson in game 1 when the Bulls should have/could have won (and Jordan played not very well the entire game), it was the follow up possession, where Jordan not only didn't take the open mid-range shot to win, he passed to Pippen and threw it behind him for another turnover. It wasn't a bad play, Pippen was open, but Jordan' pass was way off which is something that rarely occurred when Jordan was sharp and at full skill level. Also Jordan had a pretty clean look at the gw shot himself, which is something he'd rarely pass up normally.

Although Jordan had some great games in game 2, 4 and 5, he still made crucial mistakes in game 6 that probably cost the Bulls the game. His numbers were quite good in game 6, but in the last minutes of the game, with the Bulls winning but Orlando pressing, Jordan missed I believe two easy finger roll lay up attempts after beating his man in the post These were shots he'd normally make 9/10 times. And he drove twice in the last minutes of the game and turned the ball over basically unforced from his own bad ball handling.

You could just tell watching him that it was starting to come together but it wasn't all there yet. It's like he would play very well in stretches but you could still see glitches in his game that would show up at the worst possible time.

But Jordan got it basically all back in the off season. He put in massive work, the Bulls also got Rodman, and the rest is history.

I'm on the fence about the Rockets. I can't imagine the strain of 4 peating and 5 peating, the physical and emotional grind are staggering. Still, if Jordan doesn't retire in 94, I think the Bulls likely take the 94 Rockets in 6 or 7, depending on who had home court. Honestly, I think the Bulls probably take it in 6, they were so much more experienced than the Rockets, who just barely beat the Knicks. NY was very tough but Jordan beat them every time. I think over the course of 7 games, they would have worn Houston down. Give the Bulls about 6/10 odds to win.

In 95, assuming Grant left, it would be ... difficult. Exhaustion, lack of interior strength, new players. Even with Jordan, there's no absolute guarantee they get past Orlando, or the Knicks or Indiana. Still, I'd put money on Jordan. Against Houston in the Finals? Really tough, I'll say 50/50. Gun to my head, I might go with Houston. They would be so hungry for a title if the Bulls beat them in 94, and would be playing out of their minds. MJ would definitely outplay Drexler, but Maxwell and Drexler would make him work. Without Grant, they'd struggle mightily with Hakeem. He dominated Grant when they played, but Grant could at least make him work for his points. Without Grant, Bulls would have an extremely tough time.

[Norcaliblunt]

95 Rockets are getting severely overrated here. They were a like a team of destiny going up against teams who epically choked. The Bulls were the one team from that era that had the “never underestimate the heart of a champion” pedigree to not choke against this mediocre Rockets team.

94 would have been closer IMO.

[guy]

Bulls win in 94 with MJ. You had a still prime Jordan, Scottie at his peak, Horace Grant and BJ coming into their primes, with substantial bench upgrades in Kukoc, Kerr , Wennington with Cartwright, Perdue, Paxson hanging around as the old guard. The Rockers barely beat the Knicks with Ewing getting outplayed by Dream and Starks fukking up in game 7. The Bulls offense would be exponentially better on top of great defense. 95 without Grant leaves the frontline thin, combined with the strain of going for a 5-peat are the likely biggest factors in Chicago not beating the Rockets assuming they even get to the finals. Even if MJ never left and had a greater degree of familiarity with his teammates, the Magic still provide a formidable obstacle should they still end up playing them.

The thing with 95 is if Jordan never retired and is playing, that means the Bulls are still trying to compete for titles, which means they would

[Norcaliblunt]

And people forget maxwell wasn

[Phoenix]

The thing with 95 is if Jordan never retired and is playing, that means the Bulls are still trying to compete for titles, which means they would’ve done everything they could to keep Grant or find a suitable replacement instead of trying to play Kukoc at PF.

A lot of people don’t realize this, but the Bulls were pretty much ready to tear it down after 94. They almost traded Pippen for Kemp and Pippen continued to be unhappy throughout that season. That was not a team trying to win a title or a team that was trying to prove anything anymore like they did in 94. So if Jordan never retired, it’s not like that would be the same exact roster. They would’ve had all the similar pieces they had during the championship years, and if that’s the case I find it hard to see the Rockets ever beating them.

My scenario is based on the premise that Grant leaves even if MJ stays( IIRC he wasn't particularly happy by the end of his time with Chicago but I stand to be corrected), and Rodman kind of fell into their lap in 95 after wearing out his welcome in San Antonio. So the question is..what available power forward 'of consequence' fills that void in 95? It's a different conversation if the team is still intact by 95, but I'm still thinking they're some vulnerabilities just because of how gruelling a 5peat attempt would have been especially in that era. I mean, Golden State broke down at the end of their run this year in a far less physical playing environment even with modern medicine/training advantages.

[guy]

My scenario is based on the premise that Grant leaves even if MJ stays( IIRC he wasn't particularly happy by the end of his time with Chicago but I stand to be corrected), and Rodman kind of fell into their lap in 95 after wearing out his welcome in San Antonio. So the question is..what available power forward 'of consequence' fills that void in 95? It's a different conversation if the team is still intact by 95, but I'm still thinking they're some vulnerabilities just because of how gruelling a 5peat attempt would have been especially in that era. I mean, Golden State broke down at the end of their run this year in a far less physical playing environment even with modern medicine/training advantages.

True about Grant, but he was a role player and not really that irreplaceable. I

[ralph_i_el]

You can play the quote game going either way.







94 would have been nice to see because we still had Grant so there was toughness inside. 95? No Grant or Rodman(not that Rodman helped Drob when Hakeem owned him)?

95 would have been tough.

So Hakeem thinks MJ is the GOAT, but because nobody on the Bulls could matchup with him, he wasn't afraid of them as a team. Sounds about right

[Hey Yo]

But the 1995 Bulls were worse in large part because Jordan wasn't in basketball shape. They still came close to beating the Magic. The other obvious factor is that Grant was gone and they hadn't replaced him yet.

Who knows whether a Jordan with a full training camp and season under his belt would have been enough to flip the result. I believe that it would have been the case but we could just as easily say that fatigue would have played a role after so many consecutive trips to the finals.

Don't be ignorant.

No way in hell he comes back if he didn't think he was in basketball shape.

[Phoenix]

[QUOTE=guy]True about Grant, but he was a role player and not really that irreplaceable. I

[Spurs m8]

Feared a guy who could only do something when MJ was out of the league.

Sure

[Mr Feeny]

MJ wasn't in such bad shape. He put up 55 at MSG a few games after coming back and averaged 30+ in the playoffs. No Grant was a big factor though and I was assuming identical rosters. I don't see the 1995 Bulls winning a title against the Rockets.

This can't be a serious post. You're not really arguing that Jordan was in great shape because he went off in one game while shooting 41% (lowest ever as a Bull) for the season, and openly struggling with his stamina.

A guy just came into a sport, with no training camp, played 17 games and then went directly into the playoffs. He was nowhere near game shape. We saw what happened when he did have time to get into shape, though.