Bill Russell College Days

[ShaqAttack3234]

So much for the theory that Russell couldn't play offense. Looking at that footage, and he would have averaged well over 20 ppg in the current center-less NBA.

I highly doubt Russell would average 20 ppg, let alone well over 20 ppg. Come on, even at his peak in the 60's, he averaged 18.9 ppg on 45.7% shooting and 16.6 shots per game and for his career, he averaged 15.1 ppg on 13.4 shots per game and 44% shooting. We saw his scoring potential. This footage shows him not only playing college basketball, but playing in 1955 when the game was primitive.

Looking at footage of Russell, he got a lot of points in transition, today's game is much slower so he wouldn't get as many points running the floor.

And while the center position this season is the weakest it's been in years, lets not act like teams don't have any talent at that position. Dwight Howard is a beast, Tim Duncan is proving he's still very good, the Lakers twin towers duo of Gasol and Bynum are very tough to deal with, Shaq is still a force in the paint, Bogut, Lopez and Kaman are all talented centers and big 7 footers, Perkins is a great post defender and one of the strongest players I've seen and if Yao returns healthy there's another force right there. Russell was better than those players are now, but he wasn't a dominant offensive player, his greatness was in his defense, basketball IQ and leadership.

[jlauber]

I highly doubt Russell would average 20 ppg, let alone well over 20 ppg. Come on, even at his peak in the 60's, he averaged 18.9 ppg on 45.7% shooting and 16.6 shots per game and for his career, he averaged 15.1 ppg on 13.4 shots per game and 44% shooting. We saw his scoring potential. This footage shows him not only playing college basketball, but playing in 1955 when the game was primitive.

Looking at footage of Russell, he got a lot of points in transition, today's game is much slower so he wouldn't get as many points running the floor.

And while the center position this season is the weakest it's been in years, lets not act like teams don't have any talent at that position. Dwight Howard is a beast, Tim Duncan is proving he's still very good, the Lakers twin towers duo of Gasol and Bynum are very tough to deal with, Shaq is still a force in the paint, Bogut, Lopez and Kaman are all talented centers and big 7 footers, Perkins is a great post defender and one of the strongest players I've seen and if Yao returns healthy there's another force right there. Russell was better than those players are now, but he wasn't a dominant offensive player, his greatness was in his defense, basketball IQ and leadership.

I was being semi-facetious...but clearly Russell was a much better offensive player than MANY of the centers in the NBA today. Howard has been able to dominate a WEAK class of centers. Shaq, is WAY past his peak...and is STILL among the top-10 (maybe even top-5 centers) playing today. Gasol is basically a PF, and a very good one (as is Nowitzke.) And Bynum would be a middle of the pack center in the early 70's...at BEST. He can barely jump, and has no shot over eight feet. He is a classic example of what Chamberlain would do to this league. Wilt was taller, bigger, much stronger, faster, able to leap WAY above him,...and was far more skilled. Same with Howard. There is not an area physically, or in terms of skill, in which Howard was even close to Wilt.

IMHO, and at the very LEAST, Wilt would be a 35-18 .600 guy in today's game.

[jlauber]

How good an ATHLETE was Russell?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Besides basketball, Russell represented USF in track and field events. He competed in the 440 yard (402 m) race, which he could complete in 49.6 seconds.[14] He also participated in the high jump; Track & Field News ranked him as the seventh-best high jumper in the world in 1956. That year, Russell won high jump titles at the Central California AAU meet, the Pacific AAU meet, and the West Coast Relays. [B]One of his highest jumps occurred at the West Coast Relays, where he achieved a mark of 6 feet 9

[jlauber]

Of course, much like Wilt, Russell dominated 6-6 white centers, especially in college...

http://www.usfdons.com/trads/russell_years.html

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Then, no sooner had the game begun than USF captain Jerry Mullen, who had spearheaded the scoring attack against Utah the night before with 24 points, sprained an ankle. Four minutes later, USF trainer Vince Briare had Mullen taped and back in the game. In the meantime, with Mullen out, Oregon State had sagged its defense around Bill Russell, not only with the 7'3" Swede Halbrook, but also with the 7'0" Phil Shadoin, virtually ignoring forward Stan Buchanan. In response to his teammates' urging to shoot from long range, Buchanan drilled consecutive twenty footers, forcing the Beavers to adjust their strategy and play all the USF players straight up.

What followed is one of the most incredible games in NCAA annals. Darrell Wilson of the Chronicle reported: "The game's big men--7'3" Swede Halbrook and 6'10" Bill Russell from USF--fought it out around the backboard in a leap-for-leap battle in a higher area than most basketball fans have ever witnessed."

USF, with a late surge, eked out a 30-27 lead at the half, and they did so without a single field goal from the injured Jerry Mullen.

In the second half, USF pulled ahead by as many as ten points and led by eight points with less than two minutes to play, but Oregon State battled back to close the game to 57-55 with thirteen seconds remaining. USF quickly called time-out. At the end of the time-out a bizarre incident resulted in a USF foul. K.C. Jones, running and looking back toward the bench while returning to the court, inadvertently crashed into an Oregon State player. Although time was out, he was called for a foul, and since time was out, the foul was considered a technical foul. Oregon State would get not only a free throw but also possession of the ball. The Oregon State player made the free throw, closing the gap to one point, and the Beavers would now inbound at halfcourt with a chance to win the game.

With the crowd of 11,200 on its feet, one of Oregon State's best shooters, Ron Robins, fired a shot from the corner that bounced off the front of the rim, but Swede Halbrook snared the rebound high over his head. From behind Halbrook, K.C. Jones stripped the ball from the giant's towering arms. But the theft, with seven seconds remaining, was ruled a jump ball. In the '50s, the two players involved in the held ball had to jump against each other--in this case the 6'1" Jones against the 7'3" Halbrook--in the free throw circle nearest the Oregon State basket. Such a mismatch and such a floor advantage are some of the reasons for the rule change many years later which eliminated most jump balls in favor of alternating possessions. But the rule change also eliminates the kind of David-and-Goliath battle which ensued in 1955. It was up to the much smaller Jones to do something to stop Halbrook from tipping the ball either directly toward the basket or to an open teammate. Accounts vary. Some say Jones outjumped Halbrook; some say he deflected the ball as Halbrook tipped it; some say he got away with tipping it on the way up. However it happened, the ball flew into the waiting hands of teammate Hal Perry, who doubled over and protected it until the game ended a few seconds later. "[/COLOR]

[qazxsw]

check him here :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2gRSTofDsk

[Simple Jack]

^ you called it Nique

The idiots never stop

Russel's offensive game was sub-par. Don't give me that "he didn't need to shit". His teams would have dominated all their title runs had she played as good of D as he did, in addition to shooting over 55%. Rings aren't enough (even 11) to disregard that his offensive game was weak.

Care to dispute that the "average" players in the league were MUCH worse back then than now?

Giving Russell his rightful spot on an all-time list should be enough credit considering what he did in his era. All sports get better though. You think Harry Greb would beat Hopkins? You are out of your mind.

[Simple Jack]

I was being semi-facetious...but clearly Russell was a much better offensive player than MANY of the centers in the NBA today. Howard has been able to dominate a WEAK class of centers. Shaq, is WAY past his peak...and is STILL among the top-10 (maybe even top-5 centers) playing today. Gasol is basically a PF, and a very good one (as is Nowitzke.) And Bynum would be a middle of the pack center in the early 70's...at BEST. He can barely jump, and has no shot over eight feet. He is a classic example of what Chamberlain would do to this league. Wilt was taller, bigger, much stronger, faster, able to leap WAY above him,...and was far more skilled. Same with Howard. There is not an area physically, or in terms of skill, in which Howard was even close to Wilt.

IMHO, and at the very LEAST, Wilt would be a 35-18 .600 guy in today's game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I was being semi-facetious...but clearly Russell was a much better offensive player than MANY of the centers in the NBA today. Howard has been able to dominate a WEAK class of centers. Shaq, is WAY past his peak...and is STILL among the top-10 (maybe even top-5 centers) playing today. Gasol is basically a PF, and a very good one (as is Nowitzke.) And Bynum would be a middle of the pack center in the early 70's...at BEST. He can barely jump, and has no shot over eight feet. He is a classic example of what Chamberlain would do to this league. Wilt was taller, bigger, much stronger, faster, able to leap WAY above him,...and was far more skilled. Same with Howard. There is not an area physically, or in terms of skill, in which Howard was even close to Wilt.

Gasol is really a power forward/center hybrid, he has the post game to play center, he's 7'1" and 260 and he can block shots and rebound. He played a good amount of center in Memphis and due to Bynum's injuries, he was primarily a center his first 2 seasons in LA.

And once again, I disagree that Howard has no physical advantages over Wilt. I think that Howard jumps higher than any center in NBA history and I think aside from prime David Robinson, he's among the fastest as well. As far as skills, Chamberlain was superior to Howard, except for maybe Howard's left hand which is technically his off hand as an NBA player, but he's naturally left-handed. Chamberlain certainly was stronger, though.

IMHO, and at the very LEAST, Wilt would be a 35-18 .600 guy in today's game.

The most I could see Wilt averaging in the late 90's/early 00's is if we put him in his scoring prime, 28/15/3/3 on 55% shooting. Or if we took '67/'68 Wilt, 22/15-16/4/4 on 60% shooting, actually maybe 5 assists per game depending on the system. Not sure how the elimination of the old illegal defense rules post-01/02 would factor in.

[L.A. Jazz]

it's so tough to read arguments about how many points a 60's player would get today. we dont know what modern training would do to Wilt. Let's pretend he was born in 1985. then he would never had his giant complex and would use his strength like Shaq did. their would be other starplayers and he wouldnt go for records instead of winning with his team. i dont know, you dont know.
(for example, KAJ wouldnt shoot his sky hook if he was born in 1985. he trained it to perfection, because he was not allowed to dunk in college, if i remember correctly)

[alexandreben]

Not sure how the elimination of the old illegal defense rules post-01/02 would factor in.

With the illegal defense rule, Wilt can dominate the game easier, however, even in the post 01-02 season, Wilt still can dominate the game, no doubt about it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

With the illegal defense rule, Wilt can dominate the game easier, however, even in the post 01-02 season, Wilt still can dominate the game, no doubt about it.

I do wonder how much the rule changes in 2001-2002 really impacted big men. I mean look at Shaq the 2 previous seasons.

2000- 29.7 ppg, 3.8 apg, 57.4 FG%, 2.8 TO, 21.1 FGA 40 mpg, age 27-28
2001- 28.7 ppg, 3.7 apg, 57.2 FG%, 2.9 TO, 19.2 FGA, 39.5 mpg, age 28-29

Then after the rule changes

2002- 27.2 ppg, 3 apg, 57.9 FG%, 2.6 TO, 18.3 FGA 36.1 mpg, age 29-30
2003- 27.5 ppg, 3.1 apg, 57.4 FG%, 2.9 TO, 18.1 FGA, 37.8 mpg age 30-31

Offensively, the only difference is that he was playing less minutes which is to be expected because he had gained weight and he had been playing in the league for 10-11 years. Per minute and per shot, he was as effective offensively, so I'm not sure how much of an effect the illegal defense rule changes would have on the top big men.

Also, look at Tim Duncan

2000- 23.2 ppg, 3.2 apg, 49 FG%, 3.3 TO, 17.3 FGA, 38.9 mpg, age 23-24
2001- 22.2 ppg, 3 apg, 49.9 FG%, 3 TO, 17.1 FGA, 38.7 mpg, age 24-25

2002- 25.5 ppg, 3.7 apg, 50.8 FG%, 3.2 TO, 18.3 FGA, 40.6 mpg, age 25-26
2003- 23.3 ppg, 3.9 apg, 51.3 FG%, 3.1 TO, 17.2 FGA, 39.3 mpg, age 26-27
2004- 22.3 ppg, 3.1 apg, 50.1 FG%, 2.7 TO, 17.1 FGA, 36.6 mpg, age 27-28

As you can see, Duncan actually became more productive offensively after the rule changes, althoguh part of that can be attributed to him reaching an age where players generally peak.

Regardless, I question how much of an impact these rule changes really had on dominant post players. A dominant big man is a dominant big man regardless and historically very few teams have had an aswer for those type of players.

Edit: and some players have giant complexes regardless of when they were born. Look at Kevin Garnett for example. Most people claim he's 7 feet, but he insists on being listed as 6'11". Flip Saunders even use to call him 6'13" and I remember both Stephon Marbury and Reggie Miller claiming he's 7'2". Garnett will only admit to being 6'11 3/4" and look at how he reacts when Craig Sager calls him a 7 footer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRIm4_yvocc

[G.O.A.T]

Russel's offensive game was sub-par. Don't give me that "he didn't need to shit". His teams would have dominated all their title runs had she played as good of D as he did, in addition to shooting over 55%. Rings aren't enough (even 11) to disregard that his offensive game was weak.

Arguably the greatest passing center of all-time

Probably never finished then lower than 2nd in offensive rebounds and shot consistently above the league average in FG% while scoring 15-20 ppg.

That's not weak offense. At worst that's slightly above average offense.

This is a guy who scored 30 multiple times in game sevens. A guy whose scoring went up the more the pressure went up. And a guy whose team never ran a play for him to score except an alley-oop.

Nobody should dispute that sports and athletes evolve, but to value a player based on evolved standards misses the point. You can't spell Russell's name and have never seen him play a full game. Yet you evaluate his offense as weak...this is my gripe.

[jlauber]

When Howard dunks on a 12 ft rim, I'll START to compare his leaping ability to Chamberlain's. Too many observers have seen Chamberlain's leaping ability to claim that Howard can match him. Just watching a 35 year old, 300 lb. Wilt easily blocking Kareem's sky-hooks is good enough for me.

As for scoring, Wilt, from the mid-60's to the late 60's was easily capable of scoring 40-50 ppg, grab 25-30 rpg, and shoot .600+. He was BY FAR the greatest rebounder (Rodman's post-season at 9.9 rpg compared to Chamberlain's 24.5 rpg...with MANY OVER that is all you need to know.)

Chamberlain was scoring 50 ppg in his THIRD season. He was at his PEAK from the mid-60's to the late 60's. His 67-68 season, which was not as statistically impressive as his 66-67 season, was still a great example. He averaged 24.3 ppg on .595 shooting, with 8.3 apg, and 23.8 rpg (which was nearly FIVE better than the runner-up BTW.) While he continued to concentrate on passing, he still had time to send messages to the rest of the league, that if he was so inclined, he would put up a HUGE game...as evidenced by games of 52, 53, 53, and 68.

If Shaq was scoing 30 ppg, I see no reason why Chamberlain would not have, either...particularly with so few top centers at the time. In the 66-67, 67-68, and 68-69 seasons, Chamberlain faced the likes Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Hayes, Unseld, Beatty among others, 8-9 times a year. Shaq was facing Robinson, Mourning, Ewing, and Olajuwon, 2-4 times a year (and Ewing and Olajuwon were over-the-hill by 99-00)..and even then, injuries reduced those H2H's as well.

Wilt could get his shots from 10-15 ft...which was something that Shaq could not do, either. He was getting the ball some 60 times per game in the mid-to-late 60's...so he could easily have put up 30 shots per game then, and in 99-00.

I have used Shaq's Finals as an example before...he was scoring 38, 36, and 33 ppg (againsy Motumbo no less.) Here again, I see no reason why a much fitter and more athletic Wilt, who could easily play 48 mpg, would not be scoring 35 ppg.

And, I have considered Shaq the actual best rebounder, at his peak, of his generation. Rodman dominated in an era of 7-2 centers who could not get 8 rpg. BUT, in the playoffs, it was Shaq who was outrebounding most everyone he faced (including Motumbo...who led the league rebounding the same year that Shaq treated him like a step-child in the Finals.)

Here again, though, those who claim that the pace of the game would limit Wilt's rebounding...

First of all, RODMAN averaged nearly 19 rpg one season. If a 6-8 225 lb Rodman could do that, then a 7-1 (or taller) high-jump champ with 500 lb bench press strength, and who DID dominate EVERY center he faced...would SURELY have gotten that many. Secondly, while Rodman was no more than ordinary in the post-season (9.9 rpg), Wilt was even BETTER in the post-season (up to 24.5 rpg from 22.9 during the regular season.) Not only that, but Chamberlain had post-seasons of over 30 rpg. And finally, and one more time...

IMHO, Shaq's greatest post-season rebounding game was in game two of the 99-00 Finals. He grabbed 24 rebounds, in 46 minutes, out of a total of 125 rebounds in that game. While Wilt had MANY better games, the one that stands out to me, was in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals. In that game, at age 35, and playing with two badly swollen wrists (and on a surgically repaired knee) Chamberlain pulled down 29 rebounds, in 47 minutes, out of a total of 106. He nearly outrebounded the entire Knick team, as well, which finished with 39.

So, for anyone to believe that Jordan would outscore Wilt...sorry, but here are some interesting comparisons. In MJ's highest scoring season, 86-87, he averaged 37 ppg on .482 shooting, in a league that averaged 110 ppg on .480 shooting. In Wilt's greatest scoring season (but when he was nowhere near his PRIME), Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg, on .506 shooting, in a league that averaged 119 ppg on .426 shooting. Simply put, no matter how you slice it, Wilt was a FAR more dominant scorer.

So, if MJ were averaging 37 ppg in 86-87, a 61-62 Wilt would probably have easily have averaged 40 ppg. You can argue that MJ was only in his 3rd season as well...but in any case, Wilt COULD have easily have scored far more in the mid-60's than what he did. IMHO, he was a much better all-around player from 66-69, and had he been asked to CARRY an offense, he would have been a 40-50 ppg scorer then.

I have already mentioned it in another thread, but a PRIME Chamberlain was putting up 45 point games on a prime Thurmond in the mid-60's. He was putting up 58 point games on Reed. He had a 62 point game against Russell, and in the 65-66 ECF game five he put up a 46-34 game on him, as well. He had TWO 60+ games against Bellamy.

I will acknowledge that Kareem was capable of 40 ppg as well. In the 71-72 season Fatal pointed out that Kareem averaged over 40 ppg against several top centers, including Wilt (although against the entire league it was "only" 34.8 ppg.) BUT, both Wilt and Thurmond held him way down in FG%, and by the 72-73 season, Kareem was struggling to score 30 against a well-past his prime Wilt (and once again, he shot something like 45% in the process.)

In any case, the fact that Kareem could average 40 ppg against Olajuwon in the 85-86 season, and at well past his prime, is all I need to know. Kareem was dominating a center who would go on to be the best center of the 90's...and he did so well into his 30's. Does anyone actually believe that a PRIME Wilt who just CRUSHED his opposing centers, would not have abused Olajuwon even more?

In terms of physical ability, there is just too much evidence that credits Wilt with something along the lines of at LEAST a 42" vertical leap, and something around a 500 lb bench press. And both of those figures are VERY conservative, BTW (the internet is filled with links of well over a 48" vertical, and a bench press as high as 550 lbs.)

In any case, as I have said MANY times, Wilt was a champion high-jumper, a competitive long jumper (as well as a triple-jumper too), a sprinter, a 440 man, an 880 man, a marathoner, a shot-putter, an avid weight-lifter who was UNIVERALLY accepted as the strongest basketball player of his era (and maybe the strongest athlete in any professional team sport, in the world, at the time.) So, until someone credits Dwight Howard with anything close to that resume...let's be realistic...Wilt DWARFED him athletically. AND, Wilt was also FAR more skilled. Here again, I have posted footage of Wilt's shooting skills, and his shot-blocking ability...and Howard doesn't come close in either category. The bottom line...Wilt was bigger, taller, stronger,faster, able to leap higher...and was much more skilled.

Now, does anyone really think a 35-18 .600 season in the late 90's or early 00's is being unrealistic?

[Simple Jack]

Arguably the greatest passing center of all-time

Probably never finished then lower than 2nd in offensive rebounds and shot consistently above the league average in FG% while scoring 15-20 ppg.

That's not weak offense. At worst that's slightly above average offense.

This is a guy who scored 30 multiple times in game sevens. A guy whose scoring went up the more the pressure went up. And a guy whose team never ran a play for him to score except an alley-oop.

Nobody should dispute that sports and athletes evolve, but to value a player based on evolved standards misses the point. You can't spell Russell's name and have never seen him play a full game. Yet you evaluate his offense as weak...this is my gripe.

Where did I compare him to evolved standards? In fact, I said he deserves his credit on an all-time list because of how he played in his own era.

Furthermore, I've watched plenty of Russell footage.

There is so many conclusions you have drawn in this post that seriously undermine your argument. Your assumptions are flawed too.

[Simple Jack]

First of all, RODMAN averaged nearly 19 rpg one season. If a 6-8 225 lb Rodman could do that, then a 7-1 (or taller) high-jump champ with 500 lb bench press strength, and who DID dominate EVERY center he faced...would SURELY have gotten that many.

That's not a good argument. Anyone here take Formal Logic in school?