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Old 12-21-2006, 07:06 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Dunker
Cycling > can anyone argue against lance armstrong???


Yep. Cycling wasn't invented 10 years ago. I admire Armstrong for everything, but cycling history goes a bit further in the past. There was Bartali, who could win two times the most important race in the world (TdF), the second time 10 years after the first, and with a war fought on the field in the mean time. Yet, many italian people would tell you right now that Coppi was far stronger than Bartali. Then there was a cycler called "The cannibal", because... well.. guess why.
There were cycler who ran many races, not only one race every year. A few years before Armstrong Indurain won 5 tdf in a row, and the competitors were better.
You cannot look only at the statistics of one race, in last 15 yrs and forget of 100 years more of competition, and many other important races.
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Tennis > Sampras is still ahead of roger by some distance, AT THE MOMENT, cats like rod lava and aggasi would still be above feds at the moment to..



Same thing here.. story is far longer than we remember (I'm not acting teacher on you, I don't know as well as you don't): take a look at the 20 first tennis players for most grandslam tournaments won:

Pete Sampras 14 2 - 7 5
Roy Emerson 12 6 2 2 2
Björn Borg 11 - 6 5 -
Rod Laver 11 3 2 4 2
Bill Tilden 10 - - 3 7
Roger Federer 9 2 - 4 3
André Agassi 8 4 1 1 2
Jimmy Connors 8 1 - 2 5
William Larned 8 - - - 8
Ivan Lendl 8 2 3 - 3
Fred Perry 8 1 1 3 3
Ken Rosewall 8 4 2 - 2
Henri Cochet 7 - 4 2 1
Rene Lacoste 7 - 3 2 2
John McEnroe 7 - - 3 4
John Newcombe 7 2 - 3 2
William Renshaw 7 - - 7 -
Richard Sears 7 - - - 7
Mats Wilander 7 3 3 - 1
Stefan Edberg 6 2 - 2 2


How many of them do you know? How many of them have you seen playing?
My answers, to make myself clear, are 8 and 3.

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Soccer > pretty sure pele was at a higher level than maradona.

Hockey > Gretzky........

10,000m > that little dude from kenya, retired last olympics, he absolutely OWNED that event for ever... gabrial cellesi or somthen

Gebrselassie. Yes, he was astonishing. Yet, do you know who Emil Zatopek was? In one week (Helsinki '52) he won 5k, 10k and marathon, or Nurmi, who won two times the 10k with an 8 years distance.
Not to mention young rising star, Kenenisa Bekele, who holds the World Record. (Yes, Haile doesn't hold it).

If I had to add someone to Bubka, I'd say Jonathan Edwards, Michael Johnson and Sotomayor. Right now, also Yelena Isinbayeva, but her (Pole Vault) is a young event for the ladies.
And Jan Zelezny.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:10 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orfeomorfeo-ita
If I had to add someone to Bubka, I'd say Jonathan Edwards, Michael Johnson and Sotomayor. Right now, also Yelena Isinbayeva, but her (Pole Vault) is a young event for the ladies.
And Jan Zelezny.
Edwin Moses
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:15 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
Edwin Moses

Yep.. I thought about him. And yet, you go and check that he actually has the world record (conditio sine qua non, I would say) and guess what? :
400 METRES HURDLES 46.78 Kevin Young 16 09 1966 USA Barcelona 06 08 1992

And for sure you can't say KYoung is the GOAT, because it would be an insult for Moses. There's events where you can't even tell who's the GOAT.
I added MJ, but what about Carl Lewis? And CL doesn't hold any individual record. and Jesse Owens?
I think that apart MJ there's no race event with a GOAT. Maybe Asafa is on a good path... but still really far.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:22 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warriors23
ali is pretty much the best boxer

Actually, Sugar Ray Robinson is widely considered GOAT to people who knows boxing. Ali take the cake in Heavyweights.
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Old 12-21-2006, 07:37 PM   #65
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Football: Jim Brown, Don Hutson, Red Grange, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas all have a case

Hockey: Gretzky has the strongest case

Baseball: Babe Ruth easily, then maybe Ted Williams, and Willie Mays if you want to discredit Ruth for never having to play against Latinos and Blacks

Basketball: IMO it is Wilt, then Russell, Kareem, Jordan, and Magic

Wrestling: Dan Gable or the Russian heavyweight who lost in the Sydney Games

Track and field: Michael Johnson or Carl Lewis

Boxing: Joe Lewis, Rocky Marciano, or Sugar Ray Robinson
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
Whaaaaaatever

Well then explain to me how Magic's case for GOAT would have been helped had he played another 3 seasons or so? Like I said, he wouldn't have won against Jordan's Bulls (fact), and at best he would have won one more MVP (and even that is pushing it against prime Jordan and an up and coming Dream/Barkley etc.). His numbers would have taken a slight hit, and he would have added a bit more longevity to his legacy. His case would be roughly what it is right now.
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _KP_The_Familia_
all you people getting on him about Gretzky being the undeniable GOAT are DEAD WRONG. Y'all must be Americans, or just stupid hockey fans. Mario Lemiuex has a strong case as the GOAT and if his career was not ended short due to injuries he may have surpassed Gretzky.
But, Mario WAS injured, so he is not the GOAT. Penny Hardaway, Len Bias, Chris Washburn and Michael Ray Richardson could have been the GOAT if it were not for injuries, death, idiocy and drugs.
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:00 PM   #68
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Read about the first 10 replies or so and for all you f*cks talking about Gretzky being the GOAT and all that I have one picture for you.

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Old 12-21-2006, 10:01 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Well then explain to me how Magic's case for GOAT would have been helped had he played another 3 seasons or so? Like I said, he wouldn't have won against Jordan's Bulls (fact)
How is that a fact? What you have stated is the definition of an opinion, not a fact.
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:03 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
How is that a fact? What you have stated is the definition of an opinion, not a fact.


Exactly
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:03 PM   #71
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I haven't read through this topic, but I did read the first few posts...

Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the greatest boxer of all-time by A LOT. Any boxing historian will agree with me. There isn't a close 2nd.
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:07 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I haven't read through this topic, but I did read the first few posts...

Sugar Ray Robinson is considered the greatest boxer of all-time by A LOT. Any boxing historian will agree with me. There isn't a close 2nd.

Look at my post 6-7 posts ago on this page.

Either way... atleast someone knows.
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:55 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
How is that a fact? What you have stated is the definition of an opinion, not a fact.

Bullsh!t. Magic's Lakers got shelacked in '91 -- yeah, Worthy missed a game, but he was still there. Lakers weren't getting any younger, Bulls waxed them, and Chicago had by far the more balanced two-way attack as well as the game's best player in his absolute prime. No way does Magic win a title against Jordan's Bulls in '92 or '93 unless he can somehow get 1984 Kareem back on the team.


Please. Let's be realistic. I swear, Lakers homers are the most deluded fans on the planet, unwilling to concede even the most obvious things.
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Old 12-22-2006, 12:05 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Bullsh!t. Magic's Lakers got shelacked in '91 -- yeah, Worthy missed a game, but he was still there. Lakers weren't getting any younger, Bulls waxed them, and Chicago had by far the more balanced two-way attack as well as the game's best player in his absolute prime. No way does Magic win a title against Jordan's Bulls in '92 or '93 unless he can somehow get 1984 Kareem back on the team.


Please. Let's be realistic. I swear, Lakers homers are the most deluded fans on the planet, unwilling to concede even the most obvious things.
This has nothing to do with Laker homerism. This is basic English comprehension and the proper usage of the word 'fact'.

I am also of the opinion that the Bulls would have beaten the Lakers if the Lakers ever even made it back to the finals with Magic, but that is all it is, an opinion. It is not a fact and arguing that the Bulls were clearly better (they were), Magic was declining (he was), the Lakers were getting old (they were), Jordan was in his prime (he was), and the Bulls were more balanced (they were), does not make it a fact. If you do not understand the difference between an opinion and a fact, get a dictionary.
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Old 12-22-2006, 12:12 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vert48
This has nothing to do with Laker homerism. This is basic English comprehension and the proper usage of the word 'fact'.

I am also of the opinion that the Bulls would have beaten the Lakers if the Lakers ever even made it back to the finals with Magic, but that is all it is, an opinion. It is not a fact and arguing that the Bulls were clearly better (they were), Magic was declining (he was), the Lakers were getting old (they were), Jordan was in his prime (he was), and the Bulls were more balanced (they were), does not make it a fact. If you do not understand the difference between an opinion and a fact, get a dictionary.

Err, earth to vert48 -- clearly I'm aware that it's not a "fact" that Chicago would have beaten LA had they met up again in the Finals. I was using it to express an extremely high degree of probability. In taking issue with that, I assumed you were taking issue with the idea that there is a very high probability that Chicago would have beat LA again. If you don't think that I know what the word "fact" means, then you must not have read many of my posts.
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