Four KG questions:

[fpliii]

1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[ArbitraryWater]

I have him in a tier that goes from 11-19... But I probably would prefer to place him around 15-16.

I do credit him a bit for that '09 run, or lets say take his injury into account.

Realistically, minus KG Injury and 2010 Refs, the Celtics were the best team in the NBA from 2008-2010.

If Cassell doesn't go down in 2004, they probably do make the finals... KG was unfortunate in that regard. But I won't apply the title hypothetical considering it's too unlikely to me.

A secured top 15 spot if he does win in '09 and makes the '04 finals, probably. We'll never know.

[inclinerator]

1 3 7 and 4

[Sakkreth]

1) 22-24
2) 20-24
3) 19-23
4) 14-17

[ProfessorMurder]

I don't care about accolades like most people. He's definitely top 20 now, and I'd pick him over a bunch of guys in the top 20 if I'm building a team.

An extra title or two doesn't really make a difference to me. Celtics were clearly the best in the league in 2009 before his freak knee injury. The Wolves should've made the finals in 2004 if it weren't for Cassell's injury. They were 6 minutes away from winning in 2010. One thing falls a different way each year and he's won 4... So I don't really care.

[kshutts1]

[QUOTE=fpliii]1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[JellyBean]

I have KG among the top 30 players of all-time, around 23-30 range.

[Mr.Kite]

[QUOTE=fpliii]1) Where do you rank him all-time now?

2) Where would you rank him if both:

[CJ Mustard]

1. Top 15-20. His lack of offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.

[kshutts1]

1. Top 15-20. His lack off offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.

Did you know that KG was 14th on the all time scoring list? I was shocked.

[CJ Mustard]

Did you know that KG was 14th on the all time scoring list? I was shocked.

Nah, I knew he was in the 25,000 range though. Obviously he's a great offensive player by most standards, but in comparison to the greatest ever he's a notch below.

[ProfessorMurder]

1. Top 15-20. His lack of offensive dominance holds him back from being among the top 10. But outside of that, he's one of the GOAT all around players.

One thing I give him credit for, is his teams never lost a series they were supposed to win. But on the flip side, they usually lost when they were supposed to as well. He wasn't the type of player that could will his team to victory offensively.

2. I think it's clear the Celtics win in 2009 and 2010 if he didn't get hurt. However, I believe the Wolves probably lose in the Finals to Detroit. That team was too dominant defensively and KG wasn't the offensive force Shaq was, so it might've been a sweep.

KG's playoff numbers in 2004 are as good as any Ewing, Robinson, Duncan playoff lines. He could take over a game. Those numbers he put up were stupid.

Also, they weren't supposed to beat the Lakers in 2008 or the Cavs in 2010 according to ESPN experts.



If KG isn't an offensive threat and he's 14th all time in scoring, who else on the top 30 scorers list isn't a very good offensive player?

[CJ Mustard]

KG's playoff numbers in 2004 are as good as any Ewing, Robinson, Duncan playoff lines. He could take over a game. Those numbers he put up were stupid.

Also, they weren't supposed to beat the Lakers in 2008 or the Cavs in 2010 according to ESPN experts.



If KG isn't an offensive threat and he's 14th all time in scoring, who else on the top 30 scorers list isn't a very good offensive player?

Not offensively. Duncan and Ewing have definitely had more dominant offensive runs than KG in 04, Robinson was notorious for under performing offensively in the Playoffs though but I'm sure he's had some on par with KG that year.

ESPN analysts suck and they just go with the best player most of the time. Not surprising they'd pick an MVP Kobe and Lebron over a better overall team.

I never said he wasn't an offensive threat, but his offensive isn't at the same level as most of the top 10, therefore I have him in the 15-20 range.

[Milbuck]

I think the whole offense > defense argument is vastly inflated, people are so quick to point out perceived offensive flaws but defensive impact is rarely given the full credit it deserves...and this is mostly evident in KG's case. And this is another reason why I think Duncan and Hakeem's peaks are to an extent underrated, but that's a topic for another day.

Why shouldn't we hold it against ATGs who, even at their best, were transcendent offensive players but were either below average, average, or just somewhat above average defenders impact-wise? I'm not disputing that elite offense beats elite defense, but the extent to which this argument is pushed is often excessive. Why should an elite offensive weapon with all-time great defense be denigrated in favor of an all-time great offensive weapon with borderline negligible defense?

We're nitpicking here about KG's offensive game, despite him being a 23/5 player over his 8 best seasons, and 24/6 at his peak, with a high-quality versatile scoring ability (though not on the level of a Duncan or a Hakeem or a Dirk), and GOAT-level passing for his position...and this is all at an incredibly low pace..in 2004 TWolves were running at a pace of 89 which not only occurred in an era of lower pace, but was good for 21st in the league..no doubt his stats aren't gonna look insane on the surface. And even ignoring the raw stats, look at his impact: in his peak year, the Timberwolves were running the 3rd best offense with KG on the floor, and by far the worst with him off, overall 5th. Still, people view his offense like it was a clear weakness, as if his peak version wouldn't be the clear-cut best offensive power forward in the game today.

But rarely do I see people talking about how KG near singlehandedly elevated a defense at a historic level at his peak. 5th best defense with KG on the floor, 20th with him on the bench, overall 6th...112 ORTG with a 92 DRTG..

Impact wise that whole year he was at a net +20.7 in the regular season, +26.7 in the playoffs...I don't really put too much stock into RAPM but to throw it out there, dude was at 10.4 RAPM which is 0.1 ahead of Duncan and 0.1 behind Shaq. 29.7 PER, .272 WS/48, 9.1 VORP (metric comparing impact over an average player), all three higher than any Duncan season..not to knock Duncan, just for some perspective. And this was done on a 58 win, WCF team that lost to Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton...with 34 year old Cassel and 33 year old Sprewell as 2nd and 3rd options (not knocking them, but the talent discrepancy is pretty obvious).

Dude never won during his best years, so the narrative of "KG was great but he had some clear weaknesses and wasn't an ideal centerpiece" is pushed incessantly, despite proving with Boston that if you gave him the great talent that other all-time greats had, he could lead a dominant championship team...in the tail end of his prime. I really wonder how badly prime/peak Minnesota KG would've raped the league had he had teammates like Pippen/Rodman for Jordan, or Shaq/Gasol for Kobe, Kobe/Wade for Shaq, Wade/Bosh for Lebron, McHale/Parish/DJ for Bird, Kareem/Worthy/Scott for Magic, Ginobili/Parker for Duncan, etc.

[Milbuck]

1) 22-24

Who are 21-23 players better than KG?