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Old 10-02-2008, 09:53 AM   #166
plowking
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

How about answering the question.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:40 PM   #167
Shep
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

- robinson was less injury prone than olajuwon, with olajuwon missing significant time 5 out of 10 years, compared to robinsons 2 out of 10.

- robinson always did the most with what he was given (avery johnson as your second best player?), compared to olajuwon having barkley and drexler and not making the finals, or having barkley and pippen and not making it past the first round

- olajuwon had seasons where he missed the playoffs, and won only 41 games with rosters that were no worse than robinson ever had
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:24 PM   #168
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
- robinson was less injury prone than olajuwon, with olajuwon missing significant time 5 out of 10 years, compared to robinsons 2 out of 10.

- robinson always did the most with what he was given (avery johnson as your second best player?), compared to olajuwon having barkley and drexler and not making the finals, or having barkley and pippen and not making it past the first round

- olajuwon had seasons where he missed the playoffs, and won only 41 games with rosters that were no worse than robinson ever had

1. Neither were injury prone so that doesn't matter. In fact, Hakeem played 689 games in the 90s, while Robinson played 685.

2. This is funny. Hakeem won titles with much less help then Robinson did. In fact when Robinson won titles, HE WAS THE HELP. From 90-95, the help really wasn't that much different for the two. Neither supporting cast were that great. Hakeem did better though, and outplayed Robinson badly in his MVP year.

From that point on, Hakeem lost in the 2nd round, went to WCF with Barkley and Drexler, lost in the first round for the next 2 years. But what do you expect with those teams? They were all old as hell, Hakeem included. Those teams were stacked by names, not by ability. And they lost to other great teams that year that had their own superstars, like the Jazz and Lakers. On the other hand, Robinson lost in the 2nd round, MISSED A WHOLE YEAR, lost in the 2nd round, and then won a title as a 2nd fiddle. I really don't see much of a difference, especially when this part of their careers really shouldn't hold as much weight since they were past their primes.

3. The Rockets missed the playoffs in 1 year of the 90s. BIG DEAL. I would probably say Hakeem's 2 titles as the MAN with 1 playoffs missed > Robinson's 1 title as a 2nd fiddle with no playoffs missed.

I'm not going to say its not close, but Hakeem was clearly better then Robinson. In the signficant categories, Hakeem was better at everything.

Plowking - I'll agree with Shep that Lebron is better then Wade. The main difference Wade has a title and Lebron doesn't is because of the teams they play on. If Lebron had the team Wade had from 05-07, most notably Shaq, I find it hard to believe that Lebron wouldn't have a title by now, infact I would be surprised if he didn't have multiple titles by now. And I'm sure Lebron would've led last year's Heat to more then 15 wins.

Last edited by guy : 10-03-2008 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:39 AM   #169
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

Quote:
1. Neither were injury prone so that doesn't matter. In fact, Hakeem played 689 games in the 90s, while Robinson played 685.
total games mean very little when you think about it. for example: if a player misses a whole season, but averages 80 games per year for the other 9 years of the decade he hurts his team much less than the guy who misses 10 games per year. so it does matter.
Quote:
2. This is funny. Hakeem won titles with much less help then Robinson did. In fact when Robinson won titles, HE WAS THE HELP. From 90-95, the help really wasn't that much different for the two. Neither supporting cast were that great. Hakeem did better though, and outplayed Robinson badly in his MVP year.
. olajuwon missed the playoffs and won 40 games on separate occasions with rosters that would've alteast made the finals with david robinson manning the middle.
Quote:
From that point on, Hakeem lost in the 2nd round, went to WCF with Barkley and Drexler, lost in the first round for the next 2 years. But what do you expect with those teams? They were all old as hell, Hakeem included. Those teams were stacked by names, not by ability. And they lost to other great teams that year that had their own superstars, like the Jazz and Lakers.
what did i expect with the '97 rockets? what everyone else expected: to face the bulls in the finals. you're talking about a team that went 57-25 with their second best player missing 29 games and their third best missing 20. 2nd best center, 3rd best power forward, 2nd best shooting guard. a top 4 player in olajuwon, another superstar in charles barkley, and another star in clyde drexler. the best trio in the nba. and this team does not make the finals? laughable.
Quote:
On the other hand, Robinson lost in the 2nd round, MISSED A WHOLE YEAR, lost in the 2nd round, and then won a title as a 2nd fiddle. I really don't see much of a difference, especially when this part of their careers really shouldn't hold as much weight since they were past their primes.
the difference was that robinson didn't have any help before duncan arrived, where as olajuwon had help throughout.
Quote:
3. The Rockets missed the playoffs in 1 year of the 90s. BIG DEAL. I would probably say Hakeem's 2 titles as the MAN with 1 playoffs missed > Robinson's 1 title as a 2nd fiddle with no playoffs missed.
yeh, but then you look at things like olajuwon's teammates always > robinson's teammates, missed games, number of years as the leagues best player, and doing most with what you've got, and robinson comes out on top.
Quote:
I'm not going to say its not close, but Hakeem was clearly better then Robinson. In the signficant categories, Hakeem was better at everything.
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Old 10-05-2008, 06:53 AM   #170
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/200...o-admiral.html

If there's one truly great player that never seems to get his due, it's David Robinson. That lack of appreciation always seems to come down to two sticking points. First, he never won a championship without Tim Duncan. (So what? Magic never won one without Kareem, Larry never won without Parish and McHale, Michael never won without Scotty, Kobe never won without Shaq, etc.) Second, and even more damning, Hakeem Olajuwon dominated him during the 1995 Western Conference Finals...right after Robinson received the regular season MVP award.

I hate that so much of the general perception about Robinson and his place in history is defined by his performance in a single playoff series. Yes, Olajuwon thorougly outplayed him, but Hakeem was absolutely on fire throughout those playoffs. (He also had his way in the Finals against Shaq, who it should be noted was second in MVP voting that season.) Moreover, the Rockets were peaking as a team at the same time: They rolled over a 60-win team (the Jazz), a 59-win team (the Suns), a 60-win team (the Spurs) and a 57-win team (the Magic). That was their "Never underestimate the heart of a champion" season, and what happened that May was much bigger than Olajuwon versus Robinson. And as well as Hakeem played, it's not like The Admiral just rolled over and died; he averaged nearly 24 points, 12 rebounds and over 2 blocks per game in what was considererd his most infamous playoff failure. I don't know abouat you, but I wish I could fail that well.

And anyway, the Hakeem comparisons are unfair. Playoff performances, however good or bad, are only one small sample of a much larger career experiment. After all, that wasn't the first or last time an MVP has been gunned down in a one-on-one matchup during the playoffs. Larry Bird outplayed Dr. J (the MVP) in the 1981 Eastern Conference Finals. Kevin Johnson upended Magic Johnson (the MVP) in the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals. Paul Pierce outperformed Kobe Bryant (the MVP) in this year's Finals. Those losses have to be put into perspective. As such, take a look at the Olajuwon versus Robinson head-to-head numbers during their 42 regular season meetings: The stats are nearly identical. Except the most important stat, that is: Robinson's team won 30 of those games compared to 12 for Hakeem's team. That's a pretty overwhelming margin.

I also don't think that Robinson should be defined solely by his performances against Hakeem. This guy's accomplishments can stand beside all but a few players in NBA history. The man could put the ball in the hole: He led the league in scoring in 1993-94 and is one of only five players to have ever scored more than 70 points in a single game (with 71 points against the Los Angeles Clippers on April 24, 1994. He is one of only four players to have recorded a quadruple-double (with 34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 blocks against the Detroit Pistons on February 17, 1994). In 1991-92, he became just the third player to have ever ranked among the league's top 10 in five statistical categories, joining Cliff Hagan (1959-60) and Larry Bird (1985-86) -- Robinson was seventh in scoring (23.2 ppg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg), first in blocks (4.49 per game), fifth in steals (2.32 per game) and seventh in field-goal percentage (.551). That achievement also made him the first player to ever rank among the top five in rebounding, blocks and steals in a single season. And finally, he's also the only player in NBA history to win the Rebounding, Blocked Shots, and Scoring Titles and Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and MVP.

And that's the thing about Robinson: His basketball existence wasn't defined by any one thing. He did it all. No, he didn't have the killer instinct that's associated with many of the all-time greats. He wasn't the type of player who could (or was inclined to) take over offensively whenever and against whomever he wanted (he relied mostly on drives to the hoop and face-up jumpers). But in terms of playing the game to the best of his abilities and contributing in every possible phase of the game, Robinson has few peers. This fact is highlighted by his Player Efficiency Ranking (PER) numbers. He is currently third all-time (behind Michael Jordan and Shaq) with a career number of 26.18...despite his last few "off" seasons when he willingly deferred to Tim Duncan. He led the league in PER for three consecutive seasons, 1993-94 (30.7), 1994-95 (29.1) and 1995-96 (29.4). He also ranked second in 1991-92 (27.5), and third in 1990-91 (27.4), 1997-98 (27.8) and 1998-99 (24.9). He was still ranked as high as tenth in 2000-01 (23.7). To provide you with a little perspective, Kobe Bryant -- who is widely considered the most well-rounded player in the game today -- currently ranks 17th on the all-time list (23.57), and he has never finished higher than third in PER for a single season.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting PER is a definitive indicator of individual greatness. However, it does seem to genuinely reflect a player's overall contributions in several different areas. So I guess the point I'm trying to make about Robinson is that his greatness wasn't about winning one-on-one matchups, or scoring at will in clutch situations. He was about playing the game the way it's supposed to be played, on both ends of the court. And, based on how he did that, The Admiral truly should be considered one of the greatest of all time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FInsapjeY_M
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Old 10-05-2008, 04:14 PM   #171
guy
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
total games mean very little when you think about it. for example: if a player misses a whole season, but averages 80 games per year for the other 9 years of the decade he hurts his team much less than the guy who misses 10 games per year. so it does matter.

Ummm, I wouldn't say that, cause when a player misses a whole season, that season is basically dead, while the guy that only misses 10 games per year still gives his team a chance. I get what you're saying but this is an irrelevant point anyway. Neither were injury prone, so it really doesn't matter, so what's the point of comparing? Sure Robinson was more durable, but its not like Hakeem was not durable at all. It is not like the Lebron-Wade comparison, where durability is a huge difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
. olajuwon missed the playoffs and won 40 games on separate occasions with rosters that would've alteast made the finals with david robinson manning the middle.

LOL. Really? Don't even try to compare what Hakeem did in the playoffs to what Robinson did. Put Robinson on the Rockets and Hakeem on the Spurs. Robinson would not bring the likes of Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Sam Cassell to the Finals in 94, and if he did they wouldn't have beaten the Knicks. They wouldn't have been able overcome adversity, like they did with Hakeem coming back from 0-2 going on the road againt the Suns in 94, coming back in the Finals down 3-2 against the Knicks, coming back from down 3-1 against the Suns in 95, and winning every series without HCA in 95 and SWEEPING the best team in the East. Robinson would've just rolled over and died if he was in the same situation. The reason being that Robinson wasn't nearly the playoff performer Hakeem was, infact he was a big softie that lacked a killer instinct. The Rockets in those years NEEDED Hakeem to have all-time great performances for them to win titles. They would've needed the same thing from Robinson but he wouldn't have been able to cause he just wasn't a great playoff performer. I'll admit that Hakeem on the Spurs in 94 probably wouldn't have done much, but Hakeem on the Spurs with the likes of Dennis Rodman, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot, Chuck Person, and Vinny Del Negro in 95 would've won a championship. If these hypothetical Rockets and Spurs faced each other, it would be the same outcome with Hakeem's team coming out on top, cause the difference wasn't in the supporting cast, it was in the leaders of those teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
what did i expect with the '97 rockets? what everyone else expected: to face the bulls in the finals. you're talking about a team that went 57-25 with their second best player missing 29 games and their third best missing 20. 2nd best center, 3rd best power forward, 2nd best shooting guard. a top 4 player in olajuwon, another superstar in charles barkley, and another star in clyde drexler. the best trio in the nba. and this team does not make the finals? laughable.

I wasn't talking about the 97 Rockets specifically, but the 97-99 Rockets in general. I thought they should've won that series too, but it really is not laughable when you look at who they lost to that year. The Jazz had the best record in the West, had their own 2 all-time greats who were the best PF and best PG, were having their best year ever, and had the MVP who was having his best year ever. I wouldn't call that an upset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
the difference was that robinson didn't have any help before duncan arrived, where as olajuwon had help throughout.

He had help in 95. Robinson probably wouldn't have won a title with better help anyway cause he didn't step his game up in the playoffs.

And the point about Duncan was that he was equal or better then Robinson in his rookie year, and surpassed him in his second year. Robinson was 32-33 years old. There is no way a 21-22 year-old Duncan would be better then a 32-33 year-old Hakeem, who was still in the prime of his career at that time. And Hakeem by that age also had played more games in his career through that age then Robinson did. I'm sure Robinson's decline by that time had mostly to do with his 97 injury, but the reason I'm bringing this up is cause it shows that Hakeem's injuries didn't affect him like Robinson's injuries did, which means that Hakeem wasn't much less durable then Robinson, if less durable at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
yeh, but then you look at things like olajuwon's teammates always > robinson's teammates, missed games, number of years as the leagues best player, and doing most with what you've got, and robinson comes out on top.

Number of years as the league's best player? Hakeem-2, Robinson-0. Oh wait, you think Robinson was the best player of league just about every year, even better then Jordan, which is ridiculous by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep

Better scorer, better rebounder, better defender, better playoff perfomer. Maybe they are equal in those categories during the regular season, but in the regular season + playoffs, Hakeem is better cause he stepped up his game, Robinson didn't.

Last edited by guy : 10-05-2008 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:06 AM   #172
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Default Re: top 10 players of the 90s

Quote:
Ummm, I wouldn't say that, cause when a player misses a whole season, that season is basically dead, while the guy that only misses 10 games per year still gives his team a chance. I get what you're saying but this is an irrelevant point anyway. Neither were injury prone, so it really doesn't matter, so what's the point of comparing? Sure Robinson was more durable, but its not like Hakeem was not durable at all. It is not like the Lebron-Wade comparison, where durability is a huge difference.
durability is an definately an issue here, because like i said before: olajuwon missed significant time 5 out of 10 years, robinson only 2 out of 10.
Quote:
LOL. Really? Don't even try to compare what Hakeem did in the playoffs to what Robinson did. Put Robinson on the Rockets and Hakeem on the Spurs. Robinson would not bring the likes of Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, and Sam Cassell to the Finals in 94, and if he did they wouldn't have beaten the Knicks. They wouldn't have been able overcome adversity, like they did with Hakeem coming back from 0-2 going on the road againt the Suns in 94, coming back in the Finals down 3-2 against the Knicks, coming back from down 3-1 against the Suns in 95, and winning every series without HCA in 95 and SWEEPING the best team in the East. Robinson would've just rolled over and died if he was in the same situation. The reason being that Robinson wasn't nearly the playoff performer Hakeem was, infact he was a big softie that lacked a killer instinct. The Rockets in those years NEEDED Hakeem to have all-time great performances for them to win titles. They would've needed the same thing from Robinson but he wouldn't have been able to cause he just wasn't a great playoff performer. I'll admit that Hakeem on the Spurs in 94 probably wouldn't have done much, but Hakeem on the Spurs with the likes of Dennis Rodman, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliot, Chuck Person, and Vinny Del Negro in 95 would've won a championship. If these hypothetical Rockets and Spurs faced each other, it would be the same outcome with Hakeem's team coming out on top, cause the difference wasn't in the supporting cast, it was in the leaders of those teams.
all you need to do is look at how their respective teammates played when not playing alongside either player to get a good idea of their true capabilities. lets look at david robinsons teammates:
avery johnson (the second best player on most of those spurs rosters) - nbdl type talent, journeyman, wouldn't be in the league if he didn't play with robinson, seattle didn't want him after 96 games, denver didn't want him after 21 games, houston didn't want him after 49 games, golden state didn't want him after 82 games. averages a pathetic 10.9ppg, and 5.3apg as a full time starting point guard for the warriors. in only 2 years robinson transformed this schmuck into one of the best 5 point guards in the nba.
sean elliott (the third best player on most of those spurs rosters) - like johnson, elliott played 1 season away from the spurs, in detroit, and failed dismally. his ppg dropped 5 per game despite playing on the worst team in the league - truly showing what he was capable of without robinson
low lets take a look at olajuwons teammates:
kenny smith - proven point guard in the nba, has shown he can play without a dominant other, has averaged 17 points and 8 assists per game and is a good three point shooter
otis thorpe - once again has proved to be a worthy starter elsewhere, has averaged 21/10

surround robinson with proven players like this and you would no doubt get multiple championships, and i'm not even mentioning guys like sampson, drexler, barkley, or pippen
Quote:
I wasn't talking about the 97 Rockets specifically, but the 97-99 Rockets in general. I thought they should've won that series too, but it really is not laughable when you look at who they lost to that year. The Jazz had the best record in the West, had their own 2 all-time greats who were the best PF and best PG, were having their best year ever, and had the MVP who was having his best year ever. I wouldn't call that an upset.
first of all stockton wasn't the best point guard in the nba in '97, infact he wasn't even top two. second of all the jazz only had a better record because the rockets superstars had spent significant time injured, otherwise the rockets would've easily eclipsed the jazz. and third of all, the rockets big 3 played in all 6 games, so there was no excuses. olajuwon's point production matching that of greg ostertag while getting outrebounded by the same man in game 6 had a huge bearing on the outcome aswell.
Quote:
He had help in 95. Robinson probably wouldn't have won a title with better help anyway cause he didn't step his game up in the playoffs.
what help? a guy who was traded for will perdue the next offseason? a brevin knight clone? an adam morrison clone? where was this help?
Quote:
And the point about Duncan was that he was equal or better then Robinson in his rookie year, and surpassed him in his second year.
robinson was better in duncan's rookie year
Quote:
Robinson was 32-33 years old. There is no way a 21-22 year-old Duncan would be better then a 32-33 year-old Hakeem, who was still in the prime of his career at that time. And Hakeem by that age also had played more games in his career through that age then Robinson did. I'm sure Robinson's decline by that time had mostly to do with his 97 injury, but the reason I'm bringing this up is cause it shows that Hakeem's injuries didn't affect him like Robinson's injuries did, which means that Hakeem wasn't much less durable then Robinson, if less durable at all.
the rockets got swept in '96 when hakeem was 33. if duncan was drafted into that rockets team olajuwon would have to let him be number 1 like robinson did duncan in '99.
Quote:
Number of years as the league's best player? Hakeem-2, Robinson-0. Oh wait, you think Robinson was the best player of league just about every year, even better then Jordan, which is ridiculous by the way.
actually robinson: 5, olajuwon: 2
Quote:
Better scorer, better rebounder, better defender, better playoff perfomer. Maybe they are equal in those categories during the regular season, but in the regular season + playoffs, Hakeem is better cause he stepped up his game, Robinson didn't.
less injury prone, did more with what he had, unmatched production, dominated for longer etc..where did olajuwon step up his game besides the '95 playoff run?
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