I kinda feel for the Chris Webber and Paul Pierce types.

[Kblaze8855]

Guys who never have the career to match their individual ability but have to deal with 50 years of knowing that on the same floor....whoever you put against them was pretty close to their equal. Obviously guys like Duncan/KG/Dirk and Kobe/Lebron/Wade are on another level career wise but in everyones day....


You turn on a Celtic/Laker game Pierce and Kobe arent THAT far apart. Either might have 40. Both with shit teams:


https://youtu.be/p8OrL1264_A


Both have about 40. Pierce and Kobe both had chances to win it. Celtics won. Or the game 7 vs the Cavs when he gave Lebron 40 to win.

You know to a guy like Pierce that kinda thing stands out. On the same floor there is no career...just ball. And superstars in the same league are rarely as separated as history thinks when they elevate 2-3 guys and pretend nobody else existed.






They had one of the phenoms. A player of the future. THe new breed. Guy who could do whatever.

Webber is the odd man out in the all time power forward talk but you can hear how it eats at him when he talks his place in history. "Dirk, Tim, and KG know me real well..." is how he put it on NBA tv once. And I get it. He could do whatever he wanted.



Faceup and drive:















Takeover with jumpers.


















Let the team play through him and use his passing to find cutters:











Not be setup at all. He could just bring it up and run what he wanted.....

















Could give you the jump hook. One of the all time GOAT bigman athletes. Led the league in rebounds. Do it all guy. Came close to the 2 steals and 2 blocks a game mark at one point.

You know he looks at those all time lists and imagines all the guys who wouldnt actually be better than him playing on the floor together.

Duncans better than Webber....but at the time you turn on a Kings/Spurs game you arent expecting Webber to get his ass kicked. Just....a great matchup that was usually pretty close. Same for his matchups with the other top bigs.

But between injury, bad luck, ****ups, and so on....hes just never gonna be put on or even near their level. HEs not even in the best PF talk.

You get Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Barkley and a mention of Mchale with someone giving Pettit and Hayes an honorary mention. All of them in their primes play a full season in the same league....Webber would be right in the mix. Just like David Robinson. With Hakeem, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Moses, Wilt or whoever you wanna call the GOAT 5....on the same floor with Davis Robinson there wouldnt be THAT much difference. We remember he and Hakeem one way due to highlights and that series but in the early 90s people would have put Robinson over Hakeem. I wouldnt have....but I think most would. Plenty talked shit on Shaq and how he wasnt David or Hakeem at the time. Nobody would just look on a whole other level to Drob in the same league/game.....

But history says what it says because history isnt "How good was he though...." its a much more complicated question involving legacy and talking points and all.

You put first 3 years Orlando Tmac on the court with Heat Lebron it wouldnt be like.....two totally different levels of basketball being played. And it must suck to be the other guy....



Except for the money. The money would help. Speaking of which....ive been trying to decide something about one of these guys.....

[Kblaze8855]

Chris Webbers rookie deal....dumbest contract ever given out?


It was a 15 year 74 million dollar deal.

Sounds great for a sure thing superstar right?

Well....

They had the bright idea of giving him a player option after year 1 to become a restricted FA.

Turned out he had beef with Don Nelson(who did his best to seem like the good guy...and he did). He opted out and signed a one year deal with the Warriors which made him unrestricted the following summer. He told them he wouldnt play for Nelson. They kept Nelson...traded him.

So they lost their Zion type prospect after one year. Granted they got Googs and 3 picks which if they were better drafters would have made them great. They got a #5 pick which was Mike Miller, a #11 that was Todd Fuller instead of Kobe, Nash, Jermaine Oneal, or Peja and a #5 which was Vince who they traded for Jamison. They could have kept Vince or taken Dirk or Pierce instead. They could have had Kobe and Dirk.....


Still. Stupid contract. 15 year deal with a player option after year 1? They deserved to get burned.

Don seemed like a victim though....

Not often does a contending team trade the rookie of the year, but the Webber-Nelson rift had reached an irreparable stage.

According to Chris Cohan, Golden State's owner, Webber had asked that Nelson be removed as head coach.

"I rejected that," Cohan said at a news conference tonight at Oakland Coliseum before the Warriors' 109-100 victory over the Knicks. "I want Don to stay. I was told over and over again that if Don stays, we've got a problem with Chris. The lines got drawn in the sand, and I didn't think it could be repaired."

Webber was en route to Washington tonight and could not be reached for comment.

But Nelson said: "Chris gave us a number of teams that he would be willing to play for and the Bullets were one of them. We called all the teams today, and we made the best deal we could.

"This is not a happy day for us," added the coach, who received a standing ovation from the home crowd when the Warriors appeared for tonight's game. "We were trying to build a championship team, and Chris Webber was to be a part of it. I'm not exactly sure what I've done in the past that has made Chris so angry that he does not want to play for me. It's my job to win basketball games, and to get my players to understand that to be champions, I've got to drive them."

Nelson said last week that he would be willing to resign as coach if it would convince Webber to end his holdout -- a suggestion that Webber called a Nelson ploy to gain sympathy with Warrior fans.

"I never, ever said a bad word about Chris, nor will I ever," said Nelson. "The only thing wrong with Chris Webber is that he came out of college early, and he's young. We had a couple of incidents early in the season and he told me that he would prefer I not handle him that way. I thought I was very soft with him."

Webber was kinda being a ho.....but its their fault. Give a guy a player option after ONE season you get burned.

[Stephonit]

Webber was kinda being a ho.....but its their fault. Give a guy a player option after ONE season you get burned.

I don't get this. Did Webber have to exercise his option or lose it?

[Kblaze8855]

As I understand it the following season was gonna be a no cap year for reasons that dont really matter now. He was being underpaid for one year but had near record money long term. That 74 million was I think(THINK) the second biggest deal ever at the time after Larry Johnsons 84 million. I guess they figured hed just shut up and take the deal and wouldnt risk that long term money. I think he had an out after years one and like....5 maybe?

Id have to look into it more. I feel like he had 2 out years at his disposal.

[HoopologyPhD]

The only difference between me and a few more famous ISH posters is a thousand or so extra garbage posts, I too can be a ISH HOFer!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pierce showed out in the game you linked.

Same with Kobe.

To be fair tho, Kobe's team is probably one of the worst of all time. Even with Odom. Kwame Brown and Smush Parker starting? Wake me up.

I hear you on your overall point.

CWebb was nice in the early 2000s. He's not lying about matching up with his peers. CWebb was KG-like from midrange and could handle the rock. With Vlade, Sac had the best passing frontcourt. Around 2001-2002, there wasn't much separating Webb, Duncan and KG. Especially Dirk who torched Garnett in one of their H2H playoff series. CWebb was ALWAYS in that convo though. He'd be looked at different if not for the 2002 debacle.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah Kobe went in too. All those guys would have great matchups. You had no idea who would play the best....on the floor. But 30 years later they won’t even be viewed as close.

Difference between the Kobe/Lebron/Wade level and probably a half dozen guys considered on the next level or two of swing man isn’t that great on the same court together.

Same with the top 4s and the Webber’s and Michael types below. Ewing is too 40-60 to most but in peak form he could play with anyone. Just saying it’s probably frustrating to be the guy nobody cares about who remembers going toe to toe with guys considered entire tiers ahead of you.

[stalkerforlife]

Didn't know Webber did Don like that.

Yikes.

Maybe that's why he never won.

[brooks_thompson]

This is why I hate the obsession with rankings...top 5, top 20, top 15-100. People agonize over trying to separate these players, especially now with advanced stats...it

[Haymaker]

Webber was as talented as any PF in history but what he really lacked was the drive to score in crunch time and close a game. His injuries didn't help, He had his best chances to win it all at the end of his career but his bum knees prevented him to pull it off in close games (with the refs against his team).

[ClipperRevival]

One of the greatest travesties in the NBA is Weber not being a HOFer. Dude was legit one of the best player in the game for a stretch and was "the man" on a lot of great teams. I honestly have no idea how this guy wasn't 1st ballot.

[Kblaze8855]

One of the greatest travesties in the NBA is Weber not being a HOFer. Dude was legit one of the best player in the game for a stretch and was "the man" on a lot of great teams. I honestly have no idea how this guy wasn't 1st ballot.

This year coming its Duncan, Kobe, and KG as the locks.....with Bosh and Webber also up. Maybe they dont add Webber yet but I feel its unlikely they give Bosh the spot before him.

[ralph_i_el]

I feel the same about this. These all-time greats aren't invincible. Lots of guys could give them trouble.

[TheMan]

I agree with OP, Webber was legit at his peak...often overlooked, should be a HOFer.

[tontoz]

Pierce gets underrated because he wasn't an elite athlete but he did have elite skills/IQ/clutchness. I think his place in history is pretty secure.

Webber.....eh. I thought he settled for jumpers too often, especially after his injury. His career TS of 51% is pretty weak for a 4.