MVP competition of GOAT-caliber players

[Sarcastic]

You should include the age of all the people listed, and where they were in their career.

For example, Kevin Durant was 21 years old in 2010 when he finished 2nd in voting. Much easier to beat a 21 year old (a player that young has never won) than it is to beat an all time great in his prime/peak (1989 Magic Johnson).


Not all MVPs awards are equal.

[TheMan]

MJ stans will crucify you but what you said is the truth. Moreover, MJ had the perfect timing of his team hitting its prime after LA/BOS/DET declined and before the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or Duncan Spurs rose. If MJ was born a few years earlier or later his resume would be weaker as a result of greater competition.

You're a disgusting POS who's only purpose is to diminish MJ and prop up James, get the fvck outta here, ph@ggot

[dubeta]

You're a disgusting POS who's only purpose is to diminish MJ and prop up James, get the fvck outta here, ph@ggot

MJ is a present day DeMar Derozan u mad?

[JT123]

You're a disgusting POS who's only purpose is to diminish MJ and prop up James, get the fvck outta here, ph@ggot

20four?

[BlkMambaGOAT]

MJ is a present day DeMar Derozan u mad?

ARREST THIS MAN

[guy]

Yeah, it helps put things in context. Wilt would have had more MVP's had he played in any other era so his 4 MVP's need to be judged accordingly.

Ummm Wilt played in a league for many years that was a quarter of the size it was in later eras. So there's a good chance you are completely wrong, might even have less.

[TheMan]

MJ is a present day DeMar Derozan u mad?

You saying this has no affect on me whatsoever, you're literally the worst poster here.

Sit down, kid.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You saying this has no affect on me whatsoever, you're literally the worst poster here.

Sit down, kid.

Past his bed time too.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ stans will crucify you but what you said is the truth. Moreover, MJ had the perfect timing of his team hitting its prime after LA/BOS/DET declined and before the Shaq/Kobe Lakers or Duncan Spurs rose. If MJ was born a few years earlier or later his resume would be weaker as a result of greater competition.

The same could be said about the Shaq/ Kobe and Duncan Spurs, they came around after the Bulls dynasty ended. Unless you're saying none of the bulls squads are capable of beating any of those teams? If they all existed in the same decade, none of those teams have as many rings as they wound up having. The Pistons dynasty also benefitted from Boston aging, and magic's injury in 89. They benefitted in 90 from the bulls being one year away from hitting their peak, and a Pippen migraine while still being taken to 7 games. Timing and circumstance is everything in sports, and pretty much can be applied to a number of teams/players if one is going to actually make a fair argument.

As to the thread, Lebron's MVP competition has been weak since 2012. All the 00 stars are past prime, Durant, Melo, Paul, Rose hasn't played in 2 years, Howard hasn't been relevant since 2011. MJ faced far greater prime competition for his awards.

[Psileas]

Ummm Wilt played in a league for many years that was a quarter of the size it was in later eras. So there's a good chance you are completely wrong, might even have less.

First of all, it was one third of what it is when he won most of his MVP's. Second and more important, the size of the league is not directly proportional with the number of MVP caliber players. It doesn't mean that in the late 60s there were 3 times less legit MVP candidates than nowadays - how many legit MVP candidates have there existed in the last 5 years or so apart from James and Durant? Wilt playing in a league with more superstar delusion (less superstars per team) would probably enhance his individual dominance and MVP chances.

[Roundball_Rock]

Nothing he said was outlandish. Yes there are other players just as fortunate, naturally, but they were talking about MJ here.

Exactly. Does it even matter? If MJ had 4 MVP's and 5 rings would that make him a lesser player? I only point that out because people put too much stock into raw numbers, i.e. the simplistic 6>5 type thinkers. If you switched MJ and Wilt their accolades and team achievements would be different--but they would remain the same players.

It is funny Samuri implies I am not a real Bulls fan because I don't worship MJ. This is a person who constantly "throws shade at" (Samuri and TheMan love to say that--are they alts? ) Rose, Pippen, and Noah. You know, a majority of Bulls' legends...

He's in his prime, and his ONLY competition is young / early prime Kevin Durant.

Kobe, Howard and Chris Paul have consistently been among the top finishers in MVP voting during those years. Wade was up there as well in 09' and 10' (3rd and 5th).

- Young MJ had MVP comp from prime Magic, prime Bird, prime Nique
- Prime MJ had MVP comp from peak Drexler, peak Barkley, peak Hakeem, peak Nique, peak Ewing young D. Rob.
- Past Prime MJ had MVP comp from prime Shaq, peak Malone, peak GP, young Penny, young Hill

You are naming anyone who ever received top 5 MVP consideration during those years. Several of those people were not real MVP threats.

*Wilkins finished 2nd once but his next best finishes were 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 11th.
*Drexler finished 2nd once but had only one other top 5 finish, a 5th place, and only three top 10 finishes (6th and 10th were the other ones).
*Ewing never finished higher than 4th in MVP voting.
*Penny finished 3rd once. His only other years receiving MVP votes resulted in a 10th place and 16th place finish.
*Hill had a 3rd place in 97' but other than that it was a pair of 8th's and a pair of 9th's.
*Payton also finished 3rd once but never was in the top 5 in any other year.

MJ's top MVP competitors were K. Malone and David Robinson. LeBron's thus far have been Durant and Kobe. There is no massive difference there.

It is interesting you invoked Wilkins, Drexler, Penny, Hill and Payton. MJ's teammate had a MVP voting record comparable to them. It helps to have one of your competitors on your team, although LeBron had that with Wade as well.

People always gotta consider stuff like this when comparing MVP's and it also goes for other accolades, individual or collectively.

Exactly. Things need to be placed into context.

The same could be said about the Shaq/ Kobe and Duncan Spurs, they came around after the Bulls dynasty ended.

This is true. That should be factored in when people say things like Duncan>Bird because 5>3. Compare the relative competition they faced (which favors Bird), although in Duncan's favor you also have to look at what he had to work with relative to Bird.

First of all, it was one third of what it is when he won most of his MVP's. Second and more important, the size of the league is not directly proportional with the number of MVP caliber players. It doesn't mean that in the late 60s there were 3 times less legit MVP candidates than nowadays - how many legit MVP candidates have there existed in the last 5 years or so apart from James and Durant? Wilt playing in a league with more superstar delusion (less superstars per team) would probably enhance his individual dominance and MVP chances.

Exactly. There were two top 4 players of all-time in the 60's, three more top 15 players in Baylor, West and Oscar and several other legends like Petit, Cousy, and Havelick around. Only the 80's can come close to that deep a MVP pool.

I agree. Wilt's individual impact would be greater in a diluted league. He had to face legitimate competition every night in the 60's since there were so few teams. Today you play average starters most nights and weak ones on some other nights. How often does a LeBron or Durant face a good opposite number?

I have mentioned it many times before, but the MVP voting, which was done by the players at that time, was very suspicious on several occasions in the 60's.

Wilt not only won the ROY in '60, he easily won the MVP. And that is the baseline for the voting in '62. Russell and his Celtics had nearly identical seasons in both '60 and '62. And, Wilt's teams had nearly an identical mark in both years, as well. However, while Wilt had an amazing season in '60, he was clearly far more dominant in '62.

I will be the first to admit that Wilt, playing on a 31-49 team, didn't deserve an MVP in '63...albeit, he played his heart out. But still, in a season in which he ran away with the scoring title by 10 ppg, led the league in rebounding, and set a then-record FG% mark, to go along with leading the league in 12 more of their 22 statistical categories...to finish seventh was absurd. He was behind Red Kerr, whom, in their seasonal H2H's, he outscored per game, 43-19, including two games by margins of 60-21 and 70-14 was just ridiculous. Not only that, but Terry Dischinger, playing on a 25-55 team, had more first place votes.

Then, Wilt took basically the same exact roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals the next season, and still didn't win the MVP. Oscar, playing on a far more stacked team, that went 55-25, won it.

And if there was ever evidence of an "anti-Wilt" sentiment, it came in the 68-69 season. Unseld (who won the MVP), Reed (who came in 2nd), and Russell (who came in 4th) all finished ahead of Wilt, who was nowhere to be found in the voting.

In that 68-69 season, only Unseld's team had a better record, at 57-25 to Wilt's 55-27. Chamberlain's Lakers had a better record than Reed's Knicks, and were well ahead of Russell's Celtics. And, in the team H2H's, Wilt's Lakers went 3-3 against Unseld's, 4-2 against Russell's, and 5-1 against Reed's.

Then, in their personal H2H battles, Chamberlain just crushed all three of them. On top of all of that, Wilt was statistically, considerably greater than all three, as well. Add in the fact that teammate West missed 21 games (and LA went 12-9 in them), and teammate Baylor, who also finished ahead of Wilt in the voting, missed six games, and the Lakers went 5-1 in those games.

And while Russell and Wilt each won four MVPs in the decade of the 60's, it was interesting that Wilt held a 7-2 margin in first-team All-NBA selections in their ten years in the league together.

[Roundball_Rock]

Look at the all-time MVP vote shares to get another idea of how many strong MVP candidates were in each era (this needs to be put into context with active players since they are still adding to their record but it is a gauge for retired players):

Members of the Hall of Fame are marked with an asterisk (*).

Rank Player MVP Shares

1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. LeBron James 6.100
4. Larry Bird* 5.693
5. Magic Johnson* 5.129
6. Bill Russell* 4.827
7. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
8. Karl Malone* 4.296
9. Tim Duncan 4.278
10. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
11. Kobe Bryant 4.206
12. David Robinson* 3.123
13. Kevin Durant 3.005
14. Moses Malone* 2.873
15. Kevin Garnett 2.753
16. Bob Pettit* 2.628
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611
18. Oscar Robertson* 2.479
19. Charles Barkley* 2.438
20. Steve Nash 2.429
21. Jerry West* 2.090
22. Dirk Nowitzki 1.810
23. Elgin Baylor* 1.659
24. Allen Iverson 1.567
25. Bob McAdoo* 1.494
26. Chris Paul 1.459
27. Patrick Ewing* 1.424
28. Julius Erving* 1.407
29. Dave Cowens* 1.338
30. Dwight Howard 1.249
31. Willis Reed* 1.073
32. Derrick Rose 0.981
33. Alonzo Mourning* 0.968
34. Jason Kidd 0.933
35. George Gervin* 0.911
36. Bob Cousy* 0.882
37. Tracy McGrady 0.855
38. Dominique Wilkins* 0.849
39. Gary Payton* 0.823
40. Dwyane Wade 0.793
41. Clyde Drexler* 0.778
42. Scottie Pippen* 0.716
43. Sidney Moncrief 0.695
44. Dolph Schayes* 0.690
45. Wes Unseld* 0.639
46. Bernard King* 0.625
47. Rick Barry* 0.592
48. Chris Webber 0.588
49. Elvin Hayes* 0.571
50. Grant Hill 0.529

Active

Rank Player MVP Shares

1. LeBron James 6.100
2. Tim Duncan 4.278
3. Kobe Bryant 4.206
4. Kevin Durant 3.005
5. Kevin Garnett 2.753
6. Steve Nash 2.429
7. Dirk Nowitzki 1.810
8. Chris Paul 1.459
9. Dwight Howard 1.249
10. Derrick Rose 0.981

[3peated]

2011: Rose, Howard, LeBron, Kobe, Durant.

Still salty as fk about this. It will forever be the reason I hate Rose and don't respect him.

[G.O.A.T]

2011: Rose, Howard, LeBron, Kobe, Durant.

Still salty as fk about this. It will forever be the reason I hate Rose and don't respect him.

The NBA has really done a poor job of picking MVP's the last decade.

2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2011 are all not the best choice for that season.

[Warfan]

2011: Rose, Howard, LeBron, Kobe, Durant.

Still salty as fk about this. It will forever be the reason I hate Rose and don't respect him.

It's not like he voted. He had a great year and led Chicago to a league best 62 wins with Noah and Boozer missing a combined 57 games. Youngest player to ever win it