Prime Michael Jordan NBA Finals stats (1991-1993)

[Obama=ROY]

I can never put MJ as GOAT because:

1. He had too much help (top 5 SF ever, top 5 coach ever and great role players).

2. Some of his teammates testimonies that he wasn't a good team player. And on many many occasions it shows.

3. He won titles as the Magic - Bird/Bad Boys era ended. He didn't end it, it's just great timing and part of the cycle (i.e current Spurs).

His stats isn't mind boggling at all. With great teammates, comes the assists. High rebounds is just part of the triangle. High points is because he shoots a lot, has great teammates and get superstar calls. Sure, he's great, but there has been a lot of great players with a lot less talent around them.

[Alhazred]

1. He had too much help (top 5 SF ever, top 5 coach ever and great role players).

As opposed to who?

2. Some of his teammates testimonies that he wasn't a good team player. And on many many occasions it shows.

Same could be said for other all-time legends, as well.

His stats isn't mind boggling at all. With great teammates, comes the assists. High rebounds is just part of the triangle. High points is because he shoots a lot, has great teammates and get superstar calls. Sure, he's great, but there has been a lot of great players with a lot less talent around them.

Like who, for example?

[Fatal9]

This just crazy, 30 points and 11 assists? Man he is the best ever.

Those are like prime Magic finals numbers (who got 26.2/8/13/2.3 on 54%, while hitting the baby hook gamewinner...and this against the 80s Celtics too ). impressive for a shooting guard like MJ to match what Magic did.

[32jazz]

He's also the only guard to win multiple titles without a dominant center.

Zeke & Dumars did that back to back seasons(89/90) before MJ. Please stop trying to rewrite history just as those who say MJ 'led' UNC to a championship.

These revisionist historians don't know when to stop

[EricForman]

I can never put MJ as GOAT because:

1. He had too much help (top 5 SF ever, top 5 coach ever and great role players).

2. Some of his teammates testimonies that he wasn't a good team player. And on many many occasions it shows.

3. He won titles as the Magic - Bird/Bad Boys era ended. He didn't end it, it's just great timing and part of the cycle (i.e current Spurs).

His stats isn't mind boggling at all. With great teammates, comes the assists. High rebounds is just part of the triangle. High points is because he shoots a lot, has great teammates and get superstar calls. Sure, he's great, but there has been a lot of great players with a lot less talent around them.

1: every other pantheon player has a top five something teammate. Magic had top five center. Kareem had top five PG. Wilt had top five SG. Shaq had top five SG. Jordan's cast definitely isn't significantly better (if at all) than any of the other pantheon guys.

2: Not a good team player early in his career perhaps. Later on he had nothing but respect. if you're talking about not a good team player as in he talks alot of trash and is demanding of teammates, well that's an alpha dog trait that is needed to be the greatest.

3: You can't fault him for being born a few years later or that Magic had too much casual sex, right? It's silly to assume Jordan, with reasonable help, wouldn't have beaten Bird or MAgic at all. Isiah's Pistons whupped Magic and Bird at times in the decade and Jordan, with less help than what Magic/Bird/Zeke had, played the Pistons tougher than anyone. You can argue that the Bulls were the second or third best team in the league by 1989. 1989 was when Pip was still a good, but not great player. And I'm being generous with that last sentence.

His stats are mind boggling when compared to the modern era. A guard dropping 30+ on 50+% shooting while playing great D and being the guy with the mark on his back?

At least you're being (somewhat) reasonable and arguing with points (although dumb ones. mike scores alot because he has great teammates and shoots alot and mike rebounds alot because the triangle lets 2guards rebounds alot?), unlike the you-know-whos who will soon be flooding this thread.

Nice try though, thanks later. bye.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Uh, teams averaged 43 rebounds/game in the '74 finals, around 45/game for '80 finals and 47/game for '71 finals. It's not that far away from the numbers nowadays. Team like the Lakers today average around 44-45 rebounds/game. LOL at block numbers being inflated. Right, Kareem who as a 35-40 year old could give you 2-3 blocks in the mid 80s as an old man, wouldn't average even more if he was younger.

Who is arguing the amount of rebounds a team averages a game for those years / eras?

All I'm saying is as a 7'3 ALL STAR Center, you better be grabbing a ton of rebounds and getting block shots.

It doesn't impress me, never has. I expect big men to dominate. EVERY big man. It should come natural. You're a freak of nature, you put your hand up and you're virtually grabbing the rim. You should score AT WILL, you should rebound AT WILL ...

It's like praising your child for making their bed in the morning. No, I expect that out of you.

Now ... a guard or a forward who has as great of statistical dominance as a FREAK of nature big man, who are walking giants. Yeah, that's impressive to me.

[Knoe Itawl]

It was as predictable as Fatal jacking off to the "Kobe Putting In Work" video like porn that he would come in and try to derail the thread.

[EricForman]

It was as predictable as Fatal jacking off to the "Kobe Putting In Work" video like porn that he would come in and try to derail the thread.

give him credit for being creative. instead of the usual arguments, he's slyly bringing up other players stats and then suggesting they're just as good.

hey at least it's something new. he's trying to be slick.

although i suspect that Obama= Roy guy is just another roundball, KAJ, fatal gimmick account. everytime these guys come in, their thread count is always mysteriously low... i'm telling you man it's like a cult organization of three guys with 11 accounts. and the screenames are so generic it's almost like a spam account, jlauber1, robertshaw1, etc

[Samurai Swoosh]

give him credit for being creative. instead of just arguing against the general consensus, he's slyly bringing up other players stats and then suggesting they're just as good.

hey at least it's something new. he's trying to be slick.

The agenda within the agenda.

[Samurai Swoosh]

although i suspect that Obama= Roy guy is just another roundball, KAJ, fatal gimmick account. everytime these guys come in, their thread count is always mysteriously low... i'm telling you man it's like a cult organization of three guys with 11 accounts. and the screenames are so generic it's almost like a spam account, jlauber1, robertshaw1, etc

Its like 2 or 3 friends, with multiple accounts, perpetuating the identical argument out of desperation (as I said an agenda within an agenda). And act as if we're conspiracy theorists when we call them on it.

[Fatal9]

1. He had too much help (top 5 SF ever, top 5 coach ever and great role players).

It is my contention that Jordan had the better team in every playoff series he entered after 1991. Considering he is a top 5 player all time...he better damn win those series. If MJ was so great and clearly above all the other players, why could he not make the finals with a solid team in '90. I know what happened in game 7, but the rest of the guys played pretty well in some of the earlier road games (as opposed to MJ who shot like 39% in those games) and MJ had enough opportunities to end the series quicker...but why could the GOAT not do it? why couldn't he win at the peak of his career with a capable enough team around him? you hear that he is so far above the other guys, and that he would win rings in situations that other players wouldn't, but why could he not win until he got the better team in just about every series he played?

BTW, could you imagine this team in the 90s:

Pippen/Grant/Kareem/Armstrong/Paxson with Phil Jackson coaching - first of all how the hell do you score on this team with a frontline of Pippen/Grant/Kareem. Secondly...is this team flawless? Incredible interior and perimeter team. A great play maker in Pippen. Perimeter scoring by Pip, Armstrong. Excellent shooters. A clutch and GOAT level player like Kareem. The GOAT coach.

Hakeem + role players was enough to win in the 90s. Pippen without MJ was a whistle away from probably making the finals. I really think the Kareem/Pippen combo wins 8 straight in an even more dominating fashion...who's going to stop him? Ewing? Hakeem? The guy Kareem hung 46 and 43 on in consecutive matchups as the oldest player in the league?

Who is arguing the amount of rebounds a team averages a game for those years / eras?

All I'm saying is as a 7'3 ALL STAR Center, you better be grabbing a ton of rebounds and getting block shots.

It doesn't impress me, never has. I expect big men to dominate. EVERY big man. It should come natural. You're a freak of nature, you put your hand up and you're virtually grabbing the rim. You should score AT WILL, you should rebound AT WILL ...

It's like praising your child for making their bed in the morning. No, I expect that out of you.

Now ... a guard or a forward who has as great of statistical dominance as a FREAK of nature big man, who are walking giants. Yeah, that's impressive to me.

Okay...

just because you expect it out dominant centers doesn't make it any less dominant. what are you looking for, that Jordan was more spectacular in how he scored, needed to utilize more skills to do what he did? sure, no one is arguing that, but that doesn't make him a more effective or dominant player.

[32jazz]

Who is arguing the amount of rebounds a team averages a game for those years / eras?

All I'm saying is as a 7'3 ALL STAR Center, you better be grabbing a ton of rebounds and getting block shots.

It doesn't impress me, never has. I expect big men to dominate. EVERY big man. It should come natural. You're a freak of nature, you put your hand up and you're virtually grabbing the rim. You should score AT WILL, you should rebound AT WILL ...

It's like praising your child for making their bed in the morning. No, I expect that out of you.

Now ... a guard or a forward who has as great of statistical dominance as a FREAK of nature big man, who are walking giants. Yeah, that's impressive to me.

Less than 2% of the US population is over 6'4 so MJ isn't exactly a midget. Statistically he is a freak of nature as well.

MJ fans always have some excuse for for the man .
Not only did Wilt Lead the League in; Scoring, FG%, rebounds, Blocks, he even led in ASSISTS . MJ with his many supposed advantages as a guard should certainly have come close to leading the league in assists at least once?

Wilt Chamberlain's completeness dwarfs any player that has ever played this game. Period. If it is not fair to compare Wilt's(a Center) rebound/scoring/block statistics to MJ then he should only be compared to other guards/Sg's.

Being a center in an era of West,Big O, Frazier, Goodrich, Baylor ,Havelicik, Sam Jones ,Dave Bing ,etc...it is freakishly uncanny that the man was gifted enough to lead the League in ASSISTS.

[Fatal9]

Zeke & Dumars did that back to back seasons(89/90) before MJ. Please stop trying to rewrite history just as those who say MJ 'led' UNC to a championship.

Seriously.

Who was the dominant center on the '04 Pistons? Ben Wallace? He's not a better player than Grant. Who was the dominant center that Rick Barry won with? Though you notice they slyly omitted him by restricting it to only "guards" as Rick Barry is a SF. And like you mentioned who is the dominant center Zeke won with? You could even make a case for Pierce a couple of years ago too, though I think KG was the best player on the team.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Less than 2% of the US population is over 6'4 so MJ isn't exactly a midget. Statistically he is a freak of nature as well.

Jordan is actually like alittle over 6'4, 6'5 - ish. And we aren't talking about general population size, in a league where being 5'11 / 6'0 is ridiculously undersized even for a PG, yet in everyday population size thats a decent height. In basketball terms Jordan was a small guy.

[Kellogs4toniee]

1: every other pantheon player has a top five something teammate. Magic had top five center. Kareem had top five PG. Wilt had top five SG. Shaq had top five SG. Jordan's cast definitely isn't significantly better (if at all) than any of the other pantheon guys.

2: Not a good team player early in his career perhaps. Later on he had nothing but respect. if you're talking about not a good team player as in he talks alot of trash and is demanding of teammates, well that's an alpha dog trait that is needed to be the greatest.

3: You can't fault him for being born a few years later or that Magic had too much casual sex, right? It's silly to assume Jordan, with reasonable help, wouldn't have beaten Bird or MAgic at all. Isiah's Pistons whupped Magic and Bird at times in the decade and Jordan, with less help than what Magic/Bird/Zeke had, played the Pistons tougher than anyone. You can argue that the Bulls were the second or third best team in the league by 1989. 1989 was when Pip was still a good, but not great player. And I'm being generous with that last sentence.

His stats are mind boggling when compared to the modern era. A guard dropping 30+ on 50+% shooting while playing great D and being the guy with the mark on his back?

At least you're being (somewhat) reasonable and arguing with points (although dumb ones. mike scores alot because he has great teammates and shoots alot and mike rebounds alot because the triangle lets 2guards rebounds alot?), unlike the you-know-whos who will soon be flooding this thread.

Nice try though, thanks later. bye.

Owned