Is Dirk Nowitzki Underrated??

[DMAVS41]

If KG was on decent teams in his prime like Duncan and Dirk he would of easily been a championship first option, but 90% of the time he had to play with people who's names people here would struggle to remember. First time he got a decent team he was in the WCF. Second time he got a decent team NBA Champion and he was the main reason for that championship (and in case you forgot that year he won DPOTY and was 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting so its obvious he was the most vital piece of the championship)

Yea...I think he would have been as well, but the sad thing is that we will never know. I love KG....always been a big fan and defender of him. He does have a few limitations in his game / mindset that I worry about him leading a team in crunch time nigh in night out in the playoffs.

Might not matter though if he had a 2nd option like Pierce or a different elite wing player to help out. Which most title teams have to begin with.

It really sucks that KG's career was somewhat wasted in Minnesota. But he's a top 20 player of all time in my opinion and that is probably where he should be.

[StateOfMind12]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

[DMAVS41]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

I disagree for a few things, but I'm curious to know why you rank Malone over Dirk. Is it a longevity thing or is it for other reasons?

[StateOfMind12]

I disagree for a few things, but I'm curious to know why you rank Malone over Dirk. Is it a longevity thing or is it for other reasons?

Tell me what you disagree with.

Malone is above Dirk for a few reasons. Malone having superior longevity is one of them and Malone being the better player in his prime and peak is the other. I think Malone is far more clutch than most people give him credit for. He obviously had his moments of choking but he was also had his moments of being clutch.

I think that is why the Lebron being the Malone of this era is a fair comparison because Lebron is also more clutch than what most give him credit for.

Btw, I hope we are talking about Karl Malone here and not Moses Malone.

[WockaVodka]

Kevin Garnett's title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki's title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg


Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games


They have faced eachother in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.

Sadly there is no stat for defense. KG is one of the greatest defensive players and anchors of all-time. Dirk was not as bad of a defender as most people said or thought he was but he was not even close to KG, at all.

[DMAVS41]

Tell me what you disagree with.

Malone is above Dirk for a few reasons. Malone having superior longevity is one of them and Malone being the better player in his prime and peak is the other. I think Malone is far more clutch than most people give him credit for. He obviously had his moments of choking but he was also had his moments of being clutch.

I think that is why the Lebron being the Malone of this era is a fair comparison because Lebron is also more clutch than what most give him credit for.

Btw, I hope we are talking about Karl Malone here and not Moses Malone.

Yea....Karl Malone.

I disagree with Dr. J being that high. But I don't want to debate that.

Obviously Malone was better statistically at his peak, but I don't believe he was the better player. I just don't think Malone could have ever done what Dirk did in the playoffs last year....or really 06 for that matter against the Spurs.

I understand the longevity part though. Malone was just so good for so long. Malone had what...like 17 quality years in which he was either elite or very very good. That longevity is insane. This will only be Dirk's 12th year like that. Dirk needs 2 or 3 years in my opinion to get somewhat close to Malone's incredible longevity.

So I get ranking Malone higher at this point on longevity, but I don't see it on prime or peak. Malone put up great numbers....and I totally agree he's hated on way too much for not being clutch. He was actually far more clutch than people give him credit for. However, he did have some pieces to his game missing that prevented him from being the clutch player Dirk was. Its not that Malone wasn't a good player in the clutch....its that Dirk is incredibly good.

Also, its just hard to overlook Malone never winning playing his entire career with Stockton. I'm usually not a "rings" matter more than anything guy, but we at the very least have to mention the fact that Malone never won while playing with an all time great.

[StateOfMind12]

Obviously Malone was better statistically at his peak, but I don't believe he was the better player.

Dirk was the better closer and shooter than Malone was but Malone was better than Dirk at every other aspect. I'm not sure how this makes Malone a worse player than Dirk was.

I just don't think Malone could have ever done what Dirk did in the playoffs last year....or really 06 for that matter against the Spurs.

What are you referring to? The fact that he couldn't lead his team to the Finals without an all-star? Well this is honestly nothing more than a hyopthetical so we will never know. Malone was not as dependent on Stockton like many people claim and say. Malone was clearly capable of creating his own shot. Stockton made his life easier I'm sure but Malone was going to drop those points regardless.

Also, its just hard to overlook Malone never winning playing his entire career with Stockton. I'm usually not a "rings" matter more than anything guy, but we at the very least have to mention the fact that Malone never won while playing with an all time great.

I give him the "MJ pass." Malone had to go up against MJ twice in the 1997 and 1998 NBA Finals. Is there much shame in losing to the greatest player of all-time? I don't think so, so it is hard to really blame Malone for never winning a ring.

He played with an all-time great in Stockton but Stockton is relatively overrated.

Stockton was never a top 10 player in the league and if he was it was probably like 1-2 seasons at the most. For the most part Stockton was a player outside of the top 10, in the top 11-15 range. The reason why Stockton was so great though was how consistent and long he was in the top 11-15 range. Stockton's prime/peak was never really strong is pretty much what I am assuming. He was practically the same player from the 80s as he was in the 2000s.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was the better closer and shooter than Malone was but Malone was better than Dirk at every other aspect. I'm not sure how this makes Malone a worse player than Dirk was.


What are you referring to? The fact that he couldn't lead his team to the Finals without an all-star? Well this is honestly nothing more than a hyopthetical so we will never know. Malone was not as dependent on Stockton like many people claim and say. Malone was clearly capable of creating his own shot. Stockton made his life easier I'm sure but Malone was going to drop those points regardless.



I give him the "MJ pass." Malone had to go up against MJ twice in the 1997 and 1998 NBA Finals. Is there much shame in losing to the greatest player of all-time? I don't think so, so it is hard to really blame Malone for never winning a ring.

He played with an all-time great in Stockton but Stockton is relatively overrated.

Stockton was never a top 10 player in the league and if he was it was probably like 1-2 seasons at the most. For the most part Stockton was a player outside of the top 10, in the top 11-15 range. The reason why Stockton was so great though was how consistent and long he was in the top 11-15 range. Stockton's prime/peak was never really strong is pretty much what I am assuming. He was practically the same player from the 80s as he was in the 2000s.

Yea, I expected the "better at everything else" argument. And I'm not really knocking it because it is kind of true. Malone was a better defender and rebounder. But I think what Dirk gives you is simply more valuable overall.

Dirk's rebounding is under-rated. As is his defense.

When I said I'm not sure Malone could have done what Dirk has did in 06 or last year....I meant carry a team and come through in the clutch night in night out in the playoffs and lead a team to the title.

I understand that Malone lost to MJ twice.....but what about every other year?

And what about Dirk going through Duncan's Spurs in 06 or what about the road to the title last year. 3 very good teams including beating the defending back to back champs and then beating a team in the finals that most people here were calling "so good its unfair".....

Great players need to do great things. Malone was great no doubt, but he had chances. So I can't just give him a pass for never winning.

The facts are that he never won despite adequate chances. Also, Malone didn't play all that well in 97 either in the finals. I can't remember the exact stats or specifics, but he had 3 lackluster games to end that series....2 of them were losses.

Its not like I'm saying Dirk was for sure better than Malone or something. I think its every close. I just take issue with saying Malone was definitely the better player. Statistically that may be true, but we all know if you had to pick one of them to be on your team going into the 4th qtr of a close playoff game it would be without a doubt Dirk. And that matters a lot to me.

Especially when statistically in the playoffs they are so close to begin with:

Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS

Malone (if you cut off his last 3 seasons) 26/11/3 54% TS

[StateOfMind12]

I expected the "better at everything else" argument. And I'm not really knocking it because it is kind of true. Malone was a better defender and rebounder. But I think what Dirk gives you is simply more valuable overall.

While I do think scoring is worth far more than any other aspect of the game, Malone was no slouch of a scorer. The guy was a consistent 25-30 ppg scorer every night for every season for about 15+ seasons.

Malone was not a better shooter than Dirk but he was a better finisher than him.

Dirk is a more unique PF while Malone is the more traditionally PF.

Dirk's rebounding is under-rated. As is his defense.

I don't disagree but Malone was still better at him in those areas and he was far better defensively.

Malone was a PJ Brown, Kevin McHale, Charles Oakley, Kendrick Perkins type defender. He was no anchor like a Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, etc. but he was still a great defender and would be great a defensive addition for any team or championship team. Malone was also one of the greatest defensive PFs in NBA history. I can't say the same for Dirk. He is just average or maybe a little above average.

I understand that Malone lost to MJ twice.....but what about every other year?

The Jazz never had much outside of Stockton and Malone outside of '96-'98 or somewhere within that time frame. They definitely lacked a lot in the late 80s and in the early 90s though. It was practically a two-man team out there.

Especially when statistically in the playoffs they are so close to begin with:

Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS

Malone (if you cut off his last 3 seasons) 26/11/3 54% TS

Sadly, defense isn't a stat and we all know how great of a defender Malone was.

[Odinn]

Shouldn't he be widely considered a top 10 player in NBA history??

I love Dirk but this is just ridicilous.
16-22 range would be accurate for Nowitzki. But 15th spot or higher? Just NO.

Sadly there is no stat for defense. KG is one of the greatest defensive players and anchors of all-time. Dirk was not as bad of a defender as most people said or thought he was but he was not even close to KG, at all.

Nowitzki's offense: 9
KG's offense: 8
Nowitzki's defense: 4
KG's defense: 8

Nowitzki 13, KG 16. That doesn't work. Their overall impact is pretty damn close and Nowitzki's resume is better.

Duncan and Nowitzki was those go-to-guys, they made all-time great playoff runs. Both of them won without All-Star or All-NBA teammate and Garnett didn't make something special except 2004 when he was that go-to-guy. That's why Garnett should be ranked behind of Nowitzki.

[Teanett]

the old kg vs dirk question...
they were on the same level until '09.
but look at them the last four seasons.
kg has become a (very good) role player.
diggler is still the best power forward in the game.

dirk>kg

now, all-time and forever

[bizil]

As great as Dirk is, he's not top 10 worthy. He is a top 4-5 GOAT PF of all time and a top 25-30 player though. However, Dirk still has some very good to great years left in my book. The way Dirk plays lends itself to having great longevity barring a serious injury. In terms of scoring the rock, he's arguably the best PF of all time. However, there is a certain premium for the boards, D, and toughness at the PF spot. This is where Dirk falls behind the other great PF's. But his offensive impact is so great. And he's the ultimate mismatch at the PF. So it supercedes those premium PF qualities he may fall behind in. He's revolutionized the PF spot and by the end of his career he might end up as high as number 2 on the PF chart. Which would then get him in that 15-20 range GOAT wise overall.

[CardiacKemba]

I have Dirk in my top 20, not in my top 10 or top 15. As someone stated earlier, the fact that Dirk wasn't the two-way player Kobe, MJ, Hakeem, etc. were hurts him especially in an argument for greatness and an all-time list.

My all-time rankings from #11-20 goes like this,

11. Julius Erving
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Dwyane Wade
20. LeBron James

You can switch #19 and #20 around if you want but that is besides the point.

I agree with your 11-20 for the most part. I never usually like ranking players (1 over another), but I give Dirk in the 15-20 range. I understand putting Karl over Dirk too. Dirk is an offensive juggernaut, but Malone had the defensive game to compliment his offense. I can understand peoples reasoning for Dirk over Karl though, as many place the importance of rings in their all-time listings.

I have trouble putting LeBron as top 20 at the moment too (coming from a Heat and LeBron fan btw). 21-25 is all I can give him until further proving himself. I can see Wade as possibly just inside the 20, but would personally have him 21-25. Even if he did go ringless his whole career though (I think he will/could win anywhere between 1-5), he could crack top 20 just like Malone, if he held longevity and his numbers to a reasonable extent.

[winnnaz]

KG>Dirka Dirka

KG never had the talent next to him in his Minny days.
Anyone who says Cassell/Sprewell + scrubs is a good supporting cast...trololol.

As it stands, they both have 1 championship. So titles can't come into consideration.
KG is a perennial all-defensive 1st team candidate, something that Dirk could NEVER reach.
Give me awesome defence and good offence over slightly better offence with mediocre defence. NOT to mention rebounding/playmaking.

KG is also more of a natural leader..look what he did with the C's..literally changed them into a defensive powerhouse..

Saying this, I wouldn't say that KG is miles ahead of Dirk.
Although I just believe what he brings to the court is more critical to success.

[madmax]

I think he is underrated and is definitely a better player than Garnett or Barkley were...of course, the fact that he is "soft euro" and doesn't jump very high is not very marketable to NBA target audiences, so he constantly gets overlooked