Kareem: The Case for GOAT

[gts]

Kareem had a skyhook?

No just kidding, um the only thing I disagree with you on this is the timeline...If Jordan had played 18 or 19 seasons, which is close enough to debate, then yes I would be happy to make the comparison...I totally agree that any great player would work under any given framework to become the best that they can be, like you've said...:

you're penalyzing kareem because jordan couldn't/wouldn't play that many years without having to retire twice. that's jordan's problem not kareem's that fact is kareem played all those years straight and was usually in the top ranking of games played every season.

jordan took off time for whatever reasons and thus his legacy needs to be looked at in that way when comparing his career to others that stayed the course

[RoseCity07]

Not going to read all that but I agree. Kareem might be the greatest of all time. He at least has a case. All time leading scorer in the NBA.

I'd still take Michael Jordan over him though.

[RainierBeachPoet]

i am glad that there is some awareness of the difficulty of comparing eras and two different positions.

[Fatal9]

Just saw this mix this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPVqAztffyE (dunks on Wilt at 2:56)

...excellent song to match.

[magnax1]

I gotta argue with Kareem being the greatest in longevity, Jordan, Stockton, and Karl Malone had just as much longevity. Though I'd say Kareem is one of the GOAT, but not the GOAT.

[Rodmantheman]

why not?

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]I think the more people learn about Kareem's career, the stronger his argument for GOAT becomes. Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first: 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 10X all NBA first (two seasons he missed were when he broke his hand in '75 and '78), 2X Finals MVP (though it really is 3 considering he was legendary in the 1980 finals - plus Finals MVP is a pretty useless award), 5X All Second, 5X all first defensive (more competition for centers here), 6X all defensive second, 19X all-star (though his last couple weren't really "all-star" type of season), most points in NBA history, easily the longest lasting elite player in history as well.

The predictable argument usually will be (especially by Jordan fans) that he won only 3 championships as the man. To that you can really say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he

[Roundball_Rock]

you're penalyzing kareem because jordan couldn't/wouldn't play that many years without having to retire twice. that's jordan's problem not kareem's that fact is kareem played all those years straight and was usually in the top ranking of games played every season.

jordan took off time for whatever reasons and thus his legacy needs to be looked at in that way when comparing his career to others that stayed the course

Yup. KAJ was an elite player for 17 seasons and an all-star for 18 and a starter for a contender for another 2. That should enhance his legacy.

[GimmeThat]

why do I care about someone who's looked up to
when someone who's looked down upon did the same thing in a shorter amount of time

[Spurs5Rings2014]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kareem's legacy almost seems like it came down to that one game, where his teammates couldn

[Roundball_Rock]

why do I care about someone who's looked up to
when someone who's looked down upon did the same thing in a shorter amount of time

Same thing? Kareem has the greater resume, although resume does not necessarily equate to being a superior player.

[Dragic4Life]

No case at all.

Barely crack the top 5.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Lebron
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

[GimmeThat]

No case at all.

Barely crack the top 5.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Lebron
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

MJ couldn't stop himself from winning a championship if he tried.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup. If we value winning Russell is GOAT. If we value peak play Wilt/Kareem are GOAT. If we value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT (6 rings + 10 finals appearances in 70s and 80s is more impressive than 6 rings in the 90s imo).

The insane thing is bleedingpurple, that you are actually selling kareem short by saying 35/14/4 blocks. You must also consider his excellent passing ability which routinely got him 4-5 assists per game. In his prime we are talking 35/17/5/4 on 55-57% (all NBA first caliber defense too). People who try to play the pace card need to realize there is only a 10-15% difference in pace at the time of Kareem's prime and the early 90s Bulls, which really isn't much (would bring down his averages to something like 34/15/4/4, which is better than anything Jordan could come up with in his prime).

Do you see the value Kareem added to those Laker and Bucks teams? When he got injured they were 3-14 in the '75 season and on pace to win 15-20 wins max. With him they won at a rate of about 55 wins! That is just mind-boggling.

Jordan has done nothing to separate himself from someone like Kareem, but he's always passed along as the unquestioned greatest. Very misleading, especially for the younger generation, as evidenced by this forum.