Are Kobe/LeBron Top 10 all time?

[DaSeba5]

Kobe: top 10

LeBron: top 15 (will move up after this year)

[gengiskhan]

Isn't this the typical Top 10 list?

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5-6. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
7-8. Shaq/Olajuwon
9. Duncan

If so, who takes that 10 spot? LBJ or Kobe?

Kobe & Duncan are NOT top 10 from any stretch of imagination.

Oscar was the GREATEST PERIMETER PLAYER EVER to play till Magic Bird MJ showed up in NBA

Oscar's first 6 yrs resulted in 30+ppg TRIPLE DOUBLE stats. Even Bird could not mtach that.

From modern day greats (1998 - present), SHAQ is the only one who is a Top 10 GOATs LOCKED!.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]HINT: a reason why in 1997 Shaq was selected NBA's 50 greatest players to ever play even before winning a single ring. His upcoming SHEER DOMINANCE was already predicted in 1997)[/COLOR]

Btw, Duncan Kobe LBJ, only LBJ is will LOCK himself in Top 10 GOATs ever after having 2nd MVP "sweep" in a row & 2nd Ring.

Kobe is #12-#15 currently anywhere along with Duncan, Dr J., Charles, Moses etc etc.

This group will decent even more depending on Kevin Durant's success in MVP trophys & FMVP trophys.

[rmt]

Uh, Kobe is nowhere near LeBron, a 4-time MVP winner and likely back to back Finals MVP. Kobe only has 1 MVP and has far worse stats and less all-around impact (defense, rebounding, passing) and is also much less efficient. After this year the list will look like this:

Tier 1 - Jordan
Tier 2 - LeBron, Wilt, Magic
Tier 3 - Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4 - Olajuwon, Kobe, Bird

It's amazing to me how some people can just assume that the Heat are going to win and Lebron will get FMVP. Anything can happen - he could get injured or that flu that the Bulls have to sweep through the Heat and they could lose to CHI or NYK/IND. Don't count your chickens till they're hatched.

Another FMVP and ring doesn't jump Lebron past Kareem (6 rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs), Russell (11 rings, 5 MVPs), Shaq (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP), Duncan (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs) or Bird (3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs).

[ReturnofJPR]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

John Stockton and Isiah Thomas should be mentioned as well.

[fandarko]

Duncan>Olajuwon. Kobe is higher than Olajuwon and Lebron will soon be too.

Duncan has nothing on Hakeem. Both Lebron and Kobe must be in. The Top 10 is flawed, it needs to be 11. Or wait a couple of years to move Lebron in. But instead of who?

[fandarko]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

Lebron is better than Dr. J ever was. Other than that, I subscribe.

[fpliii]

In my opinion Lebron is better than Dr. J ever was. Other than that, I subscribe.

If you ignore ABA play, I agree.

[fandarko]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.

No way Kobe's 13th. It's tricky, I know, but he's top 10. The best wing to have every played excluding MJ. Also, no way Isiah's over Barkley or Kobe. No way Dr J over Kobe. Finally, there's no way to rank Jerry West over Hakeem and Duncan.

[fandarko]

If you ignore ABA play, I agree.

I mean pure skills wise. Lebron is a dominant two-way player, Dr J. wasn't.

[gengiskhan]

No way Kobe's 13th. It's tricky, I know, but he's top 10. The best wing to have every played excluding MJ.

It dont matter if he is the 2nd best SG ever.

Its the efficiency + dominance. Kobe has NEITHER.

I dont agree with Big O outside the top 10 for the same reason above.

Kobe is at best #12 - #15 as LBJ is making a strong push with 4th MVP & 2nd FMVP.

Kobe & Duncan are well out of 10th Spot for good.

[fpliii]

I mean pure skills wise. Lebron is a dominant two-way player, Dr J. wasn't.

Ah okay. J is underrated defensively, but he wasn't close to LeBron's class on that end.

[ReturnofJPR]

It dont matter if he is the 2nd best SG ever.

Its the efficiency + dominance. Kobe has NEITHER.

I dont agree with Big O outside the top 10 for the same reason above.

Kobe is at best #12 - #15 as LBJ is making a strong push with 4th MVP & 2nd FMVP.

Kobe & Duncan are well out of 10th Spot for good.

Duncan will get his 5th Chip this year and his 4th FMVP.

Tim Duncan certainly is top 10.

[NumberSix]

You could make a case for both.

[Pointguard]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

I did a very similar tier breakdown here somewhere. I agree with this for the most part.

Jordan best combination of all great qualities
Chamberlain the standard and vision of great
Magic the best team player
Kareem the all inclusive career
Bird the great team player and all around game
Russell the greatest winner
Duncan the do it all bigman/winner
Shaq the dominant one

The next group is harder to figure

Kobe
Oscar
Hakeem
Lebron
Irving
West

By the end of the year I will likely have Kobe 9 and Lebron 10.

[2010splash]

It's amazing to me how some people can just assume that the Heat are going to win and Lebron will get FMVP. Anything can happen - he could get injured or that flu that the Bulls have to sweep through the Heat and they could lose to CHI or NYK/IND. Don't count your chickens till they're hatched.

Another FMVP and ring doesn't jump Lebron past Kareem (6 rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs), Russell (11 rings, 5 MVPs), Shaq (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP), Duncan (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs) or Bird (3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs).

Well yeah, this is all assuming it does happen. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but if it does happen then that's 4 MVP's + 2 Finals MVP's. And in that case...

Shaq? No argument for him. You're basically saying 2 titles (one where he rode Wade) outweighs LeBron's 3 more MVP's.

Bird? No. 1 more ring, 1 less MVP, far worse defense. What's the argument for Bird?

Duncan? Again, similar to Shaq, you are choosing to weigh titles (far more of a team accomplishment) more heavily than MVP's (testament to individual dominance). And after all, we're ranking these individual players against each other. He has 2 more titles but 2 less MVP's. There's no clear edge to Duncan.

And honestly I'll just give you Russell and Kareem even though both are way overrated if you actually put their accomplishments into proper perspective. Kareem was basically putting up Bosh numbers during his last 3 titles and Russell's stats were just plain average. Neither player was close to as dominant as LeBron but if you ignore context, I guess you can rank them ahead of him. That makes it Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and maybe Magic. This puts LeBron at #5 at worst.