How come Kareem isn't GOAT?

[D-Wade316]

Let this thread be a reminder that Wilt>>>Kareem

[PTB Fan]

You can argue Kareem all day long.

His accomplishments are second to none. He was one of the greatest offensive forces, most dominant, physically imposing players with one of the most complete games ever...then throw in the great prime play, longetivity, greatness etc..

He's got a good case

[JellyBean]

How come? For me it comes down to media and time frame that he played. Kareem was never liked by the media, and Jordan was. Kareem played when the NBA was not like it is now, wall-to wall coverage, and well liked. I just think that it comes down to media and time frame.

[Collie]

His best years came during the NBA's least talented stretch (due to the NBA-ABA split).

[guy]

So if someone believes, and hold your breath here, that prime McGrady is the best player of all time, I don't see a problem with that (I'm not saying the person I'm quoting believes this, heh). The talent level of him and the other top wing players, including MJ, are so high and comparable that it would be like eyeballing the Sears Tower in Chicago, flying to New York, and then eyeballing the Empire State Building to determine which is the tallest.

I'm pretty sure the Sears Tower is clearly taller then the Empire State Building, so I'm not sure thats a great analogy.

[guy]

Excellent post.
And while prime T-Mac wasn't the GOAT, T-Mac could have been the GOAT IMO or at least 2nd to MJ. I really believe that.

Based on what? Athleticism and skillset? Sure. But he didn't have anywhere close to the mentality, work ethic, competitiveness, determination, and desire as the the best of the best were. If he had that, then sure. But thats just like saying "If AI was 7 inches taller he would've been GOAT." It doesn't really mean much cause T-Mac was still missing something huge. Both AI and T-Mac are my favorite players ever after Jordan, but I can't deny this.

[jlip]

His best years came during the NBA's least talented stretch (due to the NBA-ABA split).

I honestly think that the presence of the ABA diminished the level of guard/ wing player competition in the NBA as opposed to the big man. IMO, Kareem's best years came during an era which saw arguably the deepest and most talented pool of centers in the history of the league. Kareem's first 4 seasons were played against 60's greats who were still dominating in some capacity such as Wilt, Thurmond, Bellamy, and Reed. The remainder of the 70's had him competing against the likes of Lanier, Walton, Cowens, Unseld, Gilmore, etc. and he was still considered the best player in the game. Keep in mind that from '70-'76 there were less than 20 teams in the league and he faced many of these players more times than players see each other today in a 30 team league.

As an interesting aside, I don't think that Kareem's defensive dominance is discussed enough. Sometime ago, (ThaRegul8r I think) mentioned that Kareem was the anchor of a Bucks team that allowed the lowest fg% in the league for a few seasons. For most of the 70's he was at worst a top 5 rebounder in the league, even winning a rebounding title in '76. He has 4 blocks titles (I think that may be tied for most in league history with Mark Eaton.) That's very impressive considering the fact that blocks were not counted during his first 4 seasons. Although I do believe he would have had problems beating out Wilt in the seasons that their careers overlapped. Finally, he could possibly have had the most all defensive 1st team selections if there were two spots for centers as there are for forwards and guards.

[RRR3]

Based on what? Athleticism and skillset? Sure. But he didn't have anywhere close to the mentality, work ethic, competitiveness, determination, and desire as the the best of the best were. If he had that, then sure. But thats just like saying "If AI was 7 inches taller he would've been GOAT." It doesn't really mean much cause T-Mac was still missing something huge. Both AI and T-Mac are my favorite players ever after Jordan, but I can't deny this.

I meant he had GOAT level talent, dude. I never said it was likely he was going to be the GOAT (he would have had to do his 2002-03 season every year for him to be in the discussion)

[bizil]

Well when it comes to MJ he has just as many rings as Kareem. MJ has one less MVP award. MJ has six Finals MVP's. He has 10 scoring titles. But MJ is arguably the most athletic, the best scorer, best midrange, best defender, best passer, and best rebounder EVER at the SG. He combined Dr. J-David Thompson level athletic ability and combined it with an epic all around of guys like West and Big O in a 6'6 body. And is the most popular athlete ever who transcended sports and changed the marketing game. You got Ali, Ruth, Jim Brown, and MJ. Those four guys were so ahead of their time, talented, and mythical that it dictates them being GOAT.

But Kareem in my book transformed the center position and is the second greatest player of all time. There had never been a guy 7'2 with the skill and grace of Kareem at center. Even to this day. People also underestimate Kareem's athletic ability. But as great as Kareem was, he didn't dominate every facet of center play historically the way MJ dominated the SG. For example, Wilt is a better rebounder, Hakeem is more athletic, Russell is a better defender, Ewing a better midrange shot. But Kareem held his own and was one of the greats in all those areas. So I know it's grasping at straws, but these reasons put MJ ahead of Kareem slightly. And I say slightly cause Kareem's resume doesn't take a backseat to anybody. And he revolutionized the center position. U see guys similar to MJ in Kobe and Wade in terms of style of play and ability. There is NO CENTER remotely close to Kareem's blend of size at 7'2 and skill. And Kareem's longevity being a great player is probably the best of all time. He was finals MVP at 37 years old. His first All Star Game had Wilt Chamberlain in it. His last had guys like Hakeem and Ewing. That goes to show the longevity of Kareem. Hell he won rings with the two greatest PG's of all time in Magic and Big O. That's crazy to think that he was teammates of both guys and was the number one option on most of those teams.

[G.O.A.T]

To me it was his approach to the game.

His career would have been a lot more impressive I believe had he gone all out at all times. He'd probably have retired in 1985 or so, but i think he'd have as least 7-8 Championships to his credit as an elite player instead of four and two as a role player.

Had Kareem approached the game like Jordan or Russell, I'm not sure anyone could have stopped him. He's just as skilled as MJ, just as smart as Russell. His combined size and athleticism are equally if not more spectacular. He had the greatest most unstoppable move in NBA history and was capable and willing (usually) to adjust to players around him.

The difference is in what he made of his opportunities versus what those other guys made of theirs. With the MJ or Russell approach there is no way Kareem's teams come up short in '74 or '84. I don't think rosters as talented as the '78, '79 or '81 Lakers go 0-3 in their bids for titles either, certainly that attitude would at least lead to one.

Basically Kareem, like all NBA players besides Russell and Jordan came up short on a lot of opportunities to win titles. MJ and Russell never really did. They squeezed as much out of what they had around them as possible, that's what matters most to me.

[bizil]

I honestly think that the presence of the ABA diminished the level of guard/ wing player competition in the NBA as opposed to the big man. IMO, Kareem's best years came during an era which saw arguably the deepest and most talented pool of centers in the history of the league. Kareem's first 4 seasons were played against 60's greats who were still dominating in some capacity such as Wilt, Thurmond, Bellamy, and Reed. The remainder of the 70's had him competing against the likes of Lanier, Walton, Cowens, Unseld, Gilmore, etc. and he was still considered the best player in the game. Keep in mind that from '70-'76 there were less than 20 teams in the league and he faced many of these players more times than players see each other today in a 30 team league.

As an interesting aside, I don't think that Kareem's defensive dominance is discussed enough. Sometime ago, (ThaRegul8r I think) mentioned that Kareem was the anchor of a Bucks team that allowed the lowest fg% in the league for a few seasons. For most of the 70's he was at worst a top 5 rebounder in the league, even winning a rebounding title in '76. He has 4 blocks titles (I think that may be tied for most in league history with Mark Eaton.) That's very impressive considering the fact that blocks were not counted during his first 4 seasons. Although I do believe he would have had problems beating out Wilt in the seasons that their careers overlapped. Finally, he could possibly have had the most all defensive 1st team selections if there were two spots for centers as there are for forwards and guards.

Great point about the ABA and their wings. Doc, Gervin, and Thompson went to the NBA and redefined the SF and SG positions. When they hit the NBA, all three shot to the top of those positions in the NBA. U can see the influence of all three guys games even today. The NBA had seen NOTHING like those three guys before.

[guy]

To me it was his approach to the game.

His career would have been a lot more impressive I believe had he gone all out at all times. He'd probably have retired in 1985 or so, but i think he'd have as least 7-8 Championships to his credit as an elite player instead of four and two as a role player.

Had Kareem approached the game like Jordan or Russell, I'm not sure anyone could have stopped him. He's just as skilled as MJ, just as smart as Russell. His combined size and athleticism are equally if not more spectacular. He had the greatest most unstoppable move in NBA history and was capable and willing (usually) to adjust to players around him.

The difference is in what he made of his opportunities versus what those other guys made of theirs. With the MJ or Russell approach there is no way Kareem's teams come up short in '74 or '84. I don't think rosters as talented as the '78, '79 or '81 Lakers go 0-3 in their bids for titles either, certainly that attitude would at least lead to one.

Basically Kareem, like all NBA players besides Russell and Jordan came up short on a lot of opportunities to win titles. MJ and Russell never really did. They squeezed as much out of what they had around them as possible, that's what matters most to me.

I'm not sure if I'm thinking about something else, but I remember reading a quote from him where he implied that he was really only playing for the money. Do you know what I'm talking about? He could've been joking, but I don't know. He obviously wasn't considered the joking type.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Based on what? Athleticism and skillset? Sure. But he didn't have anywhere close to the mentality, work ethic, competitiveness, determination, and desire as the the best of the best were. If he had that, then sure. But thats just like saying "If AI was 7 inches taller he would've been GOAT." It doesn't really mean much cause T-Mac was still missing something huge. Both AI and T-Mac are my favorite players ever after Jordan, but I can't deny this.

He is a LeBron/Tmac fan.....intangibles and mental aspect is non-existent to him.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=233163

[RRR3]

He is a LeBron/Tmac fan.....intangibles and mental aspect is non-existent to him.

Man every time I post anything about LBJ/T-Mac you get creepily excited because you are delusional and think you can prove me wrong...

[pauk]

He is a LeBron/Tmac fan..... intangibles and mental aspect is non-existent to him.

wtf does lebron have to do with t-mac in that department you ignorant troll? wtf does lebron have to do with t-mac at all.... t-mac was just a shotjacker with less rebounding/passing/hustle/heart/work ethic/bball iq & DEFENSE......

who the hell has better work ethic, intangibles and "mental aspect" than Lebron today? tell me....? kobe right? damn kobetard....