If Lebron continues to play at this level

[funnystuff]

I think we can all agree that Bird is one of the most ugliest players of all time, right?

[Pointguard]

IIRC, only Pippen and Bird (Bird more times than Pippen) have led his team in several factors. Lebron is also versatile like that.

Lebron '09 season was a clean sweep of every statistical category (steals rebounds and blocks included). Pippen was the only other guy like that during the regular season. Lebron nearly pulled it off in the playoffs as well. Birds '86 year is one of the best in basketball history. He lead his star team in nearly every category, certainly the bigger categories, and I think they won it all that year. Bird, with Magic, also changed the game and how perimeter play can be as dominant as center play. So in effect, Bird's play was innovative and strong.

As I said to another poster: you're looking at it the wrong way. Lebron, both in Cleveland and in Miami, carries the ball a hell of a lot. He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story. Bird played SF, but a lot of the time was more a PF. He didn't carry the ball like Lebron, or as often as Lebron, and the fact that their assist average is so similar is a testament to his vision - he is essentially getting the same number of assists although carrying the ball far less. Another thing that doesn't get counted is that Bird often made the decisive pass that led to an easy assist for someone else. He wouldn't get the assist in his stats, but his vision created the basket.

There is no argument there. I will only add if Lebron had more responsibilities and he did more and it can't be said that it doesn't count. He did more, he should get credit for doing more. If Lebron has the best center and power-forward tandem in the league, he would have three or four rings now. Its too much to factor in if we go into changing their roles and why they didn't win more. The ring count counts regardless but the better situation, which affects a players performance more, somehow doesn't count.

That's as far as numbers go; as far as actual skills go: Lebron does not touch Bird in terms of vision. Just watch old videos of Bird and look at Lebron. Bird's basketball IQ is in a different world to Lebron. Look at the kinds of assists he gives, and how he gives them. What you're doing simply looking at numbers and coming up with a conclusion. It's like saying Jordan was as good of a passer as Bird - just because their assist tallies are similar. But for the same reasons as the above, Jordan isn't near Bird (nor Magic) when it comes to passing the ball.

Bird said he saw the play develop in slow motion and you have to believe him. He was unique and great at it. Lebron's passing this year hasn't been as great as it was in the past, but are his quality of pass and vision a step down from Birds? I can't say for sure. Lebron played much faster than Bird did and his creativity and speed gets more quality opportunities for teammates. While I think his vision isn't as great (Bird has to be top five all time) its still exceptional. Lebron's passes are on the mark and only Magic had the same zip on it. I do think if Lebron had Celtic movement and their quality shooters from different parts on the floor, Lebron would be considered among the best passers ever. In terms of effect, he constantly does a lot with a little.

Don't get me wrong, my username is LeBird for a reason. I think ability-wise Lebron is in the top tier of players ever. I think he is a fantastic combination of skills and physical prowess. But when it comes to fundamentals he doesn't touch Bird, and passing is one of the few things that have little to do with how athletic you are.

Bird moves from 5 to 8 on my GOAT list, quite a bit ahead of Lebron. Offensively Bird is the best to chess piece on the board for me or most like the Queen chess piece. He set the tone for mixing being versatile, mental, aggressive, fearless and knowing how to impose his will on the game. The '86 season was just "Wow."

[Lebron23]

It's definitely not going to be easy to maintain and it never is, even if you're 110% all in. The Thunder have their core and continually gain experience, the Lakers have made moves that could eat up and prevent Lebron from capitalizing on what he's started, preventing him from additional titles and accolades while at his peak a lot in the same way Magic and the 80s Lakers did to Bird. Not to mentiom having the early 80s 76ers and late 80s Pistons to deal with.

You are already one of the good posters in this forum. If I visit the US later this year. I will recruit you on my basketball team.

On topic

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

[ILLsmak]

Lets Anaylze Them

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)[/COLOR]

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever

I think this is a good post.

-Smak

[Hands of Iron]

I think we can all agree that Bird is one of the most ugliest players of all time, right?

That's not very nice.

[Hands of Iron]

You are already one of the good posters in this forum. If I visit the US later this year. I will recruit you on my basketball team.

On topic

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

He's already on the same level I think for what they are as basketball players; abilities, impact on the floor, etc. Now it's just a matter of getting the accolades for the 'Greatness' case. Lebron is probably one of the Top 6 or 7 to play the game peak-for-peak even without anymore accolades. I wish he hadn't snapped during the 2010 playoffs because up until that point (Game 5) he wasnt far off from his 2009 level which was as great as any Forward has ever played in the playoffs, really.

[Round Mound]

LOL, you broke defender up three times in favor of Bird. Please go on youtube and show me where Bird locked down anybody. He wasn't this great defender at all. He might have been adequate at best. PF's back then rarely scored anyway.

When Kurt Rambis came out the game and AC Green came in Bird whole game was affected by AC Green because he couldn't keep up with him. When real powerforwards played Mchale guarded Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Dr J. So while Bird was avoiding the better foward 95% of the time, Lebron is guarding the best scorer on the other team 85% of the time. Dennis Johnson used to guard Barkley in a lot of those Philly matchups, which is just plain crazy. Lebron would have been guarding the hotter between Dr J and Barkley - Bird didn't guard either of the Forwards. Its not even a conversation, to be honest.

Check Bird`s Defensive Rating and DWS...Broken Down Stats Don`t Lie Bird was a Great Post Defender and a Great Team Defender. He wasn`t The Best Defender Against Agil, Quick and Potent SFs but Against PFs he was MORE THAN FINE...and NO McHale Guarded Barkley Most of the Time.

[LeBird]

There is no argument there. I will only add if Lebron had more responsibilities and he did more and it can't be said that it doesn't count. He did more, he should get credit for doing more. If Lebron has the best center and power-forward tandem in the league, he would have three or four rings now. Its too much to factor in if we go into changing their roles and why they didn't win more. The ring count counts regardless but the better situation, which affects a players performance more, somehow doesn't count.

True, he deserves credit for what he does but in terms of assessing their abilities I am not using those stats to be so suggestive. It's akin to comparing a scorer from one team to another scorer from another team, where the former has to compete with several other players and the latter doesn't. The latter player may end up averaging more, but the ppgs stats don't mean he is better than the former. Circumstances mean that often players' talents are hidden or even shine even more.

I'm just saying, I don't put them on par as passers just because their assist tallies are similar. I think their circumstances, and the way they played, greatly influence that.

Bird said he saw the play develop in slow motion and you have to believe him. He was unique and great at it. Lebron's passing this year hasn't been as great as it was in the past, but are his quality of pass and vision a step down from Birds? I can't say for sure. Lebron played much faster than Bird did and his creativity and speed gets more quality opportunities for teammates. While I think his vision isn't as great (Bird has to be top five all time) its still exceptional. Lebron's passes are on the mark and only Magic had the same zip on it. I do think if Lebron had Celtic movement and their quality shooters from different parts on the floor, Lebron would be considered among the best passers ever. In terms of effect, he constantly does a lot with a little.

Well, I can't say how he'd be in the Celtics team for as good as the movement was I think Bird had a lot to do with that. Guys like Magic and Bird made other players love playing with them, making those runs, knowing those guys will get the pass to them somehow.

While I consider Lebron a very good passer of the ball, especially for someone who could simply bully the game by being finishing plays himself, I don't put him on that top tier. Then again, one can argue whether there is a diminishing gains element there - that even though there may be better passers than Lebron their returns for that extra talent isn't as much. I personally think it means Bird could have played the role Lebron tried to play in his first year with the Heat far better than he did; whereas Lebron had to basically take over this year. And that's the difference between the elite passers and the very good ones.

Bird moves from 5 to 8 on my GOAT list, quite a bit ahead of Lebron. Offensively Bird is the best to chess piece on the board for me or most like the Queen chess piece. He set the tone for mixing being versatile, mental, aggressive, fearless and knowing how to impose his will on the game. The '86 season was just "Wow."

Yeah, perfectly described for me. The Queen chess piece. He was so adaptable and dangerous. As I said earlier, Lebron has what it takes to get into the discussion after he decorates himself with more trophies. Ability-wise, he is already there. Just getting to that discussion though is tough; and I don't think he'll ever be the clear GOAT - because in my mind no one is - but he could surprise, so we'll see.

I've never really understood this argument. LeBron is ball dominant(or was, he's certainly NOT ball-dominant as a Heat) because he CAN be. He has the athleticism and dribbling ability for it. Bird did not. You wouldn't want him dribbling behind the 3pt line, trying to create possession-after-possession. He had to perfect his off-ball, triple-threat and post game to overcome his limited athleticism. Dribbling the ball more would have HURT his production, not help.

It depends, really. I don't think it's imperative to have your best player bring the ball out - others less skilled who can do that are aplenty. For Lebron's it's been something he's had to do because of the lack of a good-great PG. For me, though, basketball is slightly more to do with efficiency than volume. Could Lebron get as many assists if he played a pure SF role?

I wonder. In that sense, I really wonder whether being ball dominant helps his stats. Honestly, though, as I said before, you compare them as passers and they're different. A lot of the time Lebron is getting assists simply because he is being double-teamed and there is a free man - not necessarily because he has great vision or slick passing. Maybe in terms of dollars and cents that means one is as valuable as the other for assists, but in terms of actual passing I think it means one is on a higher skill-set.

Not that I consider LeBron a superior passer to Bird, but his success in posting high assist numbers on Team USA over the years is enough testament to his passing prowess. He doesn't need to dominate the ball to be a high APG guy. He has also averaged 6.6 apg the last 2 seasons while sharing the ball with Wade. That's plenty impressive.

It is but just how impressive? It also means he can get easier assists by playing with such an offensive threat.

As far as the thread's concerned, I don't think Bird ever impacted the game at the level '09 and '10 LeBron did. LeBron's an equivalent offensive player while being significantly better defensively. He also has better numbers in both forms of the game. Does anyone think Bird could lead those Cavalier teams to back-to-back 60+ wins? I sure as heck can't, but I can certainly see LeBron matching Bird's success in Boston.

Take a look at the mid-80s. Basically, Bird was the perfect player before his injuries, IMO. Did anything he wanted, to basically everyone, and he sure as hell never had a mental collapse. As for the turnaround - Bird already did that kind of turnaround in his rookie season.

[BlackVVaves]

When Lebron has a clear case above Bird, or as the greatest SF, he has a clear case over Jordan. It just isn't going to happen in all likelihood. If it does happen, then you are talking about the GOAT. Between the likes of Bird, Jordan, Magic, etc, there is hair's width and you can argue who is better than who. Even those guys aren't clearly better than each other. So if Lebron even enters that discussion he'll have done amazingly well.

As for now, I think Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder whereas Lebron is slightly better scorer and a better defender. I don't think Lebron is ever going to get to the level of Bird's fundamentals but if he can get the aggregates/volume, back that up with championships, then he'll be right alongside him.

The most rational, and mature, post in this entire thread.

[LeBird]

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

Christ it bugs me when people compare titles like that as if 1=1. Bird competed with Kareem, Magic and Jordan for his MVP titles - among others. 3 players that are usually in the top 5 of all time. Lebron never had that kind of competition. Lebron can be as great as Bird, or even better, but don't use that as your argument as it is just stupid.

[BlackVVaves]

Fixed...


Mind you, Bird was my favorite player of all time alongside Reggie, i have around 150-200 games with him.... but i am not simpleminded, i have watched every single game of Lebron and i can tell you with full comfort that Lebron is somewhat of a better overall individual player no matter how you twist and turn it... Bird will tell you the same (and he does, all the time, hell he even said Lebron will end up GOAT)...

All-time rankings are more about accolades rather than Individual talent... if that wasnt the case then Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson would have been GOATs

So because Bird said Lebron is better than him, it's probably true, is what you're saying?

Magic called Kobe the greatest Laker of all time. Is Kobe then the greatest Laker of all time? Because Magic said Kobe is, it's probably true?

[BrickingStar]

[Christ it bugs me when people compare titles like that as if 1=1. Bird competed with Kareem, Magic and Jordan for his MVP titles - among others. 3 players that are usually in the top 5 of all time. Lebron never had that kind of competition. Lebron can be as great as Bird, or even better, but don't use that as your argument as it is just stupid.

Look at how you try to compare lebron to bird

"As for now, I think Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder whereas Lebron is slightly better scorer and a better defender. I don't think Lebron is ever going to get to the level of Bird's fundamentals but if he can get the aggregates/volume, back that up with championships, then he'll be right alongside him."

Why mention bird is a better shooter and not mention lebron is a better striker/driver to the basket. And why mention lebron is slighty a better scorer and not say the same thing for bird being a slightly if not equal passer to lebron? LeBron is on birds level in passing he just isn't as flashy as other players to it mentioned.

[LeBird]

Look at how you try to compare lebron to bird
Why mention bird is a better shooter and not mention lebron is a better striker/driver to the basket. And why mention lebron is slighty a better scorer and not say the same thing for bird being a slightly if not equal passer to lebron? LeBron is on birds level in passing he just isn't as flashy as other players to it mentioned.

If Bird is a better shooter, but Lebron is a better scorer, then it stands to reason that he is a better driver to the basket. Although, I guess people could interpret that in saying that Lebron takes a lot of shots. However, I am assuming people actually watch basketball here and that wouldn't need explaining.

As for the passing: because IMO Bird is more than slightly better at passing, that's why.

Not sure why you're griping. I've clearly said that Lebron is, ability-wise, equal to the greats of the game.

[BrickingStar]

If Bird is a better shooter, but Lebron is a better scorer, then it stands to reason that he is a better driver to the basket. Although, I guess people could interpret that in saying that Lebron takes a lot of shots. However, I am assuming people actually watch basketball here and that wouldn't need explaining.

As for the passing: because IMO Bird is more than slightly better at passing, that's why.

Not sure why you're griping. I've clearly said that Lebron is, ability-wise, equal to the greats of the game.

Then say so instead of just posting clear bias like it's not close that bird is a better passer then lebron but it isn't when it comes to scoring. As for bold are you retarded? Do you think ISH is a good place for realistic bball discussion?

[LeBird]

Then say so instead of just posting clear bias like it's not close that bird is a better passer then lebron but it isn't when it comes to scoring. As for bold are you retarded? Do you think ISH is a good place for realistic bball discussion?

How is it clear bias in the way of arguing? I am saying it is my opinion that Bird is a much better passer than Lebron. So me mentioning that it's close - which is your opinion - defeats the purpose of my posting.

ISH, wherever, I am assuming the obvious doesn't need spelling out. Whereas for Bird it's likely that many posters didn't see him play or haven't seen many videos; it is less likely the case for Lebron.

FTR, where do you argue bball 'realistically'?