Best Big 3 Ever? highlights

[3ball]

I've never said anyone put 4 guys behind the three point line.

Yes you did - the entire point of your guys' argument was that coaches put players BEHIND THE ARC to take advantage of the illegal defense rules - according to you guys, the illegal defense rules forced defenders to "follow" offensive players to the 3-point line, thus allowing a magnitude of clear-out isolations that we don't see today - here's Flpiii's quote right here:

this is why the clear-out isolation era was born, when guys would stand beyond the arc even if they weren't shooters, and the men guarding them had to follow them

^^^^^ this is a complete fabrication - teams didn't even ATTEMPT 3-pointers back then, let alone FAKE like they were going to.. Teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game in the 80's - so instances where 3+ players spent a possession behind the 3-point line literally don't exist - this alone disproves their claim

Nor did the Illegal Defense Guidelines force defenders to hug shooters at the 3-point line - the adjacent zones specified in the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to sag off 3-point shooters, so that defenders could play man-to-man defense the same way man-to-man HAS ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED

The worst part is how ludicrous it is - like, we know for a FACT that Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, KC Jones - you name it - none of these guys put 4 players behind the 3-point line to isolate the star player - it literally NEVER happened.. How are you not embarassed by claiming Pat Riley or Chuck Daly positioned Salley, Edwards and Mahorn or Ewing, Oakley and Xavier behind the 3-point line - you don't think anyone knows that this DIDN'T happen, ever?... It's insanity..

Coaches TODAY don't even put non-shooting bigs behind the 3-point line because they know it doesn't draw defenders out - defenders aren't fooled by thinking they need to guard non-shooters.. When guarding non-shooters, defenders don't to have decide whether to stay at home or help - they know they are going to help the whole time and will sag off the maximum amount and help immediately, so their recovery time is too quick - this is why coaches don't put non-shooting bigs on the perimeter - it DOESN'T WORK to spread the floor.

I said clearouts occurred before the 2015 finals.

Uh no - you guys said a lot more than that - again, your guys' main argument (quoted above) was that coaches put players BEHIND THE ARC even if they were non-shooters - you guys said the Illegal Defense Guidelines forced defenders to "follow" these guys out to the arc, thus allowing more secluded isolations for the star player.

I have yet to see where Chuck Daly or Phil Jackson put Longley, Wennington and Dave Corzine behind the 3-point line to isolate MJ.. G-T-F-O

That didn't happen in previous eras.. That's a lie you guys made up to counter the reality of legal paint-camping and poor coaching strategy that didn't space the floor..

[3ball]

You said 2015 Finals were the first time clearouts ever happened

You're lying again - I never said that.

[COLOR="Red"]I said the 2015 conference finals and Finals is the first time a coach put 4 guys behind the 3-point line to isolate the star player......
[/COLOR]
which is 100% true - no player has ever enjoyed such secluded isolations in the history of the game.

[sportjames23]

Magic, Kareem, Worthy >

Them or Bird/Parish/McHale or MJ/Pip/Grant (or Rodman).

[3ball]

Them or Bird/Parish/McHale or MJ/Pip/Grant (or Rodman).

MJ, Pippen and Grant were never considered a Big 3

You think Horace Grant belongs in a Big 3?

He's several levels below the members of virtually every other Big 3 ever

Only in hindsight, once we look back and say "Wow, a 3-peat", do people overrate Grant as a notable player - but at the time, he was a role player, nothing more.. The Bulls were a Big 2, with a role player.
.

[3ball]

Chicago Tribune, 1987

There`s a new rule in the NBA this season that [COLOR="Red"]prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out[/COLOR] for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.

So wait... It was ILLEGAL to clearout?

You're arguing against yourself here and just proved I was right - putting players behind the 3-point line to isolate another player was ILLEGAL, as of 1987.

Thanks for proving my point - I will use this going forward to disprove future claims of an "isolation era" in the 80's and 90's...

You and Flpiii always do this - prove my arguments for me - he said paint-camping was not legal in previous eras, then he sends me a link to Rule 2b, the legal paint-camping provision of the Illegal Defense Guidelines...

Btw, Flpiii is ALSO the one that sent me the link to the famous Stu Jackson article - I swear to god it's true... So you have him to blame for that as well!!!!!!!!!... If I could find the actual post where he sent me that article I would.

Again show me where I specifically say 4 guys or stfu dude, you're done.

You said they placed non-shooters behind the 3-point line to isolate for the star player - THIS A LIE.

Riley, Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson - none of these coaches placed Ewing, Longley, or John Salley behind the 3-point line to isolate someone and it's ludicrous to think they did...

Not only that, but isolating in this fashion was ILLEGAL as of 1987

So i've proved you wrong again, and you actually helped this time.. Good job... Pat yourself on the back for proving that clearout isolations where a coach puts players behind the 3-point line was ILLEGAL in the 80's and 90's...

Oh btw, Prometheus did the same thing once - prove my point for me - we were disputing Lebron's level of ball-domination, and then he points me to nba.com stats, where we find the NBA has ball-domination data - the data showed that Lebron and Harden are the only non-PGs in the league that dominate the ball more than starting point guards.. It was hilarious.. So this is now 4 times you guys have significantly helped, if not MADE, my arguments (although, tbh, I don't consider Prometheus a liar like you, Flpiii and Dr.J4ever are).
.

[Kobe_6/8]

I think a true Big 3 must be made up of 3 players who are first-options on most NBA teams. I don't count Duncan/Gino/Parker or Jordan/Pippen/Rodman, etc.

James/Wade/Bosh

[3ball]

[COLOR="Green"]Hey Flpiii, Dr.J4ever and all other MJ haters - don't EVER say the 80's and 90's were the clearout" or "isolation" era - that has now been proven as 100% false:[/COLOR]

New NBA Rule instituted in 1987 (per Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune):

[COLOR="Red"]

Section 32 Paragraph 15...

... a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession.

[/COLOR]


As you can see, clearouts were ILLEGAL starting in 1987...


How you like them apples Flpiii, Dr.J4ever, and sdot_thadon.... So don't you EVER............................ EVER EVER EVER EVER.... EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER... say that the 80's and 90's were the "clearout" era - it's the opposite - clearouts were ILLEGAL you cocksucking liars..

[Fire Colangelo]

Holy **** wtf??

Keep your shit in one thread. Not everyone gives a **** about clear outs and what not.

[Rocketswin2013]

Not sure why he isn't banned by now tbh.


Edit: cringe-worthy.

[3ball]

Not sure why he isn't banned by now tbh.


Edit: cringe-worthy.

You losers are the ones lying itt... Making shit up about how teams used to put non-shooters behind the 3-point line to isolate.

That is a blatant lie that never happened - it's not even about producing an example - IT NEVER HAPPENED - like, it's complete lunacy to say that coaches used to put non-shooters like John Salley behind the 3-point line..

I'm amazed everyone are such a bitches, that they don't have the spine to stand on their own two feet and say the truth, just because they don't want to side with me?

That proves most posters on here are insecure little bitches with no spine that can't stand on their own two feet.. They can't even stand up and state the obvious truth.. They prefer to accept a lie.. It's pathetic... I get sick thinking about discussing basketball with you guys - you're not worth it- you guys don't know shit and/or are very very lame

[Dr.J4ever]

Was about to post a Dr.J highlight reel and came across the "evidence" 3ball was looking for.

To clarify, what I originally said in a piece to 3ball, was that the 76er of the pre-Moses era had plays where they would try to expose the illegal defense of the other teams by putting people outside the 3 point arc, even players who couldn't shoot that far out. Others here like Kblaze seem to remember that too with Nellie's old Bucks and maybe others too.

Now, what I said about the 76ers taking advantage of the old rules absolutely happened, even though I'm only basing it on my memory of that era. So now, this highlight reel shows it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdIJ52-8YzI

Watch at the 9:13 mark of the above video where Doc is isolated at the left elbow, while SF/PF Bobby Jones, a medium range shooter at best, and C Caldwell Jones, who can't shoot at all, and PG Lionel Hollins are all outside of the 3 point arc. In Hollin's case, he is way out and he has never been considered a long range bomber. The opposing defenders are pretty close to them, and Doc is isolated almost completely.

This video, while I don't recall this game at all, must have been pre-Moses, and even pre-1981 when Andrew Toney joined the 76ers, just because Lionel Hollins is still on the team. Hollins was no longer on the team when Toney joined the 76ers in 1981.

So there, 3ball. Now , as for the 1987 thing, let the others explain that. BTW, get your paint camping shit in your own thread.

Just as a side note, this would probably be the way Julius would be used in today's smarter offenses, but this time with real shooters as a threat to clear the paint. Back then, at least before 1987, iso guys could be isolated in this way, but to be honest, I only recall it being used in certain sets. It seemed they were used by coaches to prove a point to the refs.

[3ball]

Watch at the 9:13 mark of the above video where Doc is isolated at the right elbow

Why show an instance with only 3 guys behind the 3-point line, and act like that's what I said?

I said FOUR players and there's a REASON for that - putting 4 guys behind the 3-point line is the most optimal kind of isolation.

These optimal isolations NEVER happened in the 80's and 90's, but they happen all the time today.

I can show dozens of optimal isolations from today's game, where all 4 players are behind the 3-point line - but you can't show even ONE such optimal isolation from the 80's or 90's.

Btw, from sdot's article, Doug Collins said they didn't have ANY isolation or clearout plays for Jordan, let alone have 4 guys behind the 3-point line to set it up:

Sam Smith, Chicaco Tribune, 1987:

Yet, even that, like Jordan`s flights of fancy toward the basket, [COLOR="Navy"]was improvised. According to Bulls coach Doug Collins, the Bulls do not have plays to specifically isolate Jordan. It`s just that his skills enable him[/COLOR] to make it look as if everyone else is standing around and watching.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...el-jordan-rule

putting people outside the 3 point arc, even players who couldn't shoot that far out.. Others here like Kblaze seem to remember that too

[color="navy"]^^^^ This is the real lie you guys have been spreading - you guys claim that even though previous eras didn't have 3-point shooters, coaches spread the floor anyway by using non-shooters instead... In other words, previous eras DID have spacing - coaches in previous eras DID space the floor.. It's disgraceful.[/color]

Look, there's nothing wrong with finding a one-off example and saying "oh look, apparently it happened once in a blue moon back then"... But it's another thing to state "coaches put non-shooters behind the 3-point line in previous eras" and act like the floor was spaced.

IT WAS NOT - the floor was NOT spaced in previous eras - previous eras did NOT have spacing - for you guys to act like the floor WAS spaced because coaches merely used non-shooters is an outrageous lie.. You should be ashamed that you must lie to prop up your erroneous beliefs about the game.. It's better to simply acquire accurate beliefs so you don't have to lie and make excuses.

Of course, anyone that understands basketball knows that it's dumb for a coach to use non-shooters to spread the floor or facilitate clearouts.. Defenders encourage non-shooters to shoot by sagging off - when defenders sag off the maximum while knowing they will never have to contest, they help can help off non-shooters that much quicker, which nullifies the entire objective of a clearout.

Now, as for the 1987 thing, let the others explain that.

This rule relates to the lie you guys are spreading that previous eras spaced the floor.. Flpiii claimed that: "teams started putting non-shooters above the arc where their defenders had to follow them"

We already know this is BS because the floor wasn't spaced in previous eras, let alone spaced by non-shooters.

But even without knowing this, the 1987 rule banned the placement of players behind the 3-point line to create isolations (the exact thing Flpiii claimed teams had "started" doing):

Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune, 1987:

"Section 32 Paragraph 15... a new rule in the NBA this season that prohibits teams from placing three or more players above the top of the key, away from the ball, thus clearing out for one-on-one or two-on-two play. A violation results in a loss of possession."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...el-jordan-rule

So you guys can no longer claim that "teams started putting non-shooters above the arc where their defenders had to follow them".

That lie has been debunked with this rule - you no longer have to take my word for it that you're wrong.. This rule proves it, and I'm now just the messenger.
.

[Dr.J4ever]

Again @3ball, and this is the last time that I will address this--what I said is true--the 76ers did OCCASIONALLY PUT NON SHOOTERS BEHIND THE LINE to isolate Julius, especially in the pre-Moses era. It happened, is what I said, and you called me a liar. There is the evidence above in that YT clip I provided.

I never mentioned the # of people that they put outside the arc, as some posters here have done. Don't lump me in with what other posters have said because I may or may not agree with them. I don't have alternates and you could plainly see I don't live here in ISH to promote agendas. The only thing I wanted to do when I first signed up was to talk a little bit about the Doc because I feel he is underrated here on the board, and give my take since I am probably one of the older posters here at 47 years old.

You may or may not want to apologize for calling me a liar, but I already produced one clip. Would it really be surprising to see many more clips of this example? Maybe someone produces 4 guys outside the arc? Maybe? I also never said it was used consistently, and I did my caveat by saying it was DONE TO EXPOSE THE OPPOSING TEAM FOR PLAYING AN ILLEGAL DEFENSE. Again, it was done SPARINGLY, at least based on my limited memory.

I don't disagree with many of the things you say about spacing/eras and such but it's really getting tiring bro. Time to stop beating a dead horse.

[Round Mound]

Bird-McHale & Parish The GOAT and Original Big 3.

I Think They Have The Most Wins For A Big 3 Too

[rmt]

Bird-McHale & Parish The GOAT and Original Big 3.

I Think They Have The Most Wins For A Big 3 Too

Yes. TD/TP/Manu need to win 2 more regular season games to break the Celtics' record but they have them on playoff wins.

Trio / Total wins / Regular season wins / Playoff wins

Duncan/Parker/Manu 659 539 120
Bird/McHale/Parrish 632 540 92
Magic/KAJ/Cooper 600 490 110