Greater Playoff Performer - Hakeem vs Shaq vs Kareem vs Wilt

[jlauber]

Credit to Wilt for outplaying Russell and Thurmond(he did NOT outplay Kareem in the '72 WCF), but in the '67 finals, Wilt averaged what? 17 ppg on 56% shooting? Thurmond held Wilt farther below his season averages than Wilt did to Thurmond.

I find YOUR take on the Kareem-Wilt '72 WCF's interesting...

Obviously, you did NOT witness that series (while I DID)...but in any case how about a MILWAUKEE sport's writer's perspective on that series...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=167180&page=2

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Kareem’s Image as Best Suffered in Buck Defeat
Bob Wolf
The Milwaukee Journal, April 24, 1972

When the Milwaukee Bucks won the National Basketball Association championship a year ago, there was talk that they had a dynasty in the making.

But their dynasty ended before it really began, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s reputation as the greatest center of all time was tarnished in the process.

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar’s 230.

Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.

Because of the strong defensive work of his two veteran rivals, Abdul-Jabbar often was forced away from his favorite shooting positions. He took hook shots from 12 to 15 feet away instead of from 8 to 10, and sometimes he even resorted to 15 foot jump shots.

Keep It Up

As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, “Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That’s something he doesn’t usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it.”

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory, and Bucks Coach Larry Costello said, “I don’t want Kareem taking 15 footers. You do that and you’re just not playing your game.”

But Chamberlain’s dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar’s change in tactics, and Wilt’s performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career. "[/COLOR]

Or perhaps this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[85] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[85] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his final Game 6 performance, which the Lakers won 106–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played a complete 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[86] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[86] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior."[87]"[/COLOR]

Or maybe this perspective...

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Ro.../dp/1572436727

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Thirty years after he retired from basketball, Wilt still owns more NBA records then any player in history. Bill Russell may have won all those championships, but not even Russell was a match for Wilt statisically. Chamberlain almost always outscored and out rebounded Russell in every encounter. Russell no doubt almost always had the better teams. Abdul Jabbar played 20 seasons to Wilts 13, and yet Chamberlain has several thousand more lifetime rebounds. In the twilight of his career, a 35 year old Wilt led the Lakers to victory over the Bucks and a 25 year old Jabbar during the 1972 playoffs. Even more astounding, was wilt blocked 20 shots in two consecutive games in that series, and 11 of those blocked shots were on Kareem. Who the heck ever did that to Jabbar. Makes you wonder what Wilt would have done in his prime. As great as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson were, none of them had the impact or dominance of Wilt Chamberlain. The rules of the game were altered upon Wilts arrival into the league. Modern day fans talk of Shaq being the greatest center of all-time. Does anyone out there think Shaq could have blocked 11 Kareem shots in two games? Shaq wouldn't have been able to leap high enough to block a skyhook. That statistic alone, should be enough to convince anyone of Wilts athleticism."[/COLOR]


That 71-72 WCF series was one of FOUR I believe, in his 13 year playoff CAREER, in which Wilt was outscored by his opposing center. And in the other three, the difference was marginal. AND, I while I have not researched ALL of Wilt's 13 post-seasons, that one was also the ONLY one in which he was outshot from the floor...and that was by a .457 to .452 margin. He outshot Kareem the year before .537 to .500. And in most of those post-seasons, he was WAY ahead of the next guy.

Of course, those that look at the stats will see Kareem's 34-11 ppg edge. BUT, Kareem only shot over 50% in two of those games. He also was shut down in the 4th quarter in several. And, as mentioned above, in the clinching game six win, Wilt just overwhelmed Kareem and the Bucks in the last quarter.

Incidently Wilt outshot Kareem, in their 28 H2H games by a 53-46 margin. In their final season, BTW, in the 72-73 regular season, Kareem shot .450 to Wilt's .637.

Of course, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in that 71-72 WCF's, although to Kareem's credit, it was only by two per game. Incidently, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in their career meetings by a 18.2-17.1 rpg, even though he was well past his prime, and 11 years older.

The best indication that I can give you of what a healthy Wilt could do against Kareem, came in their first meeting in the 69-70 season. Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23, he outrebounded Kareem, 25-20, he outassisted Kareem, 5-2, he outblocked Kareem, 3-2, and, more significantly, he outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21. Unfortunately, Wilt suffered a devastating knee injury shortly after that, and was never the same again. While Kareem was a rookie, Wilt was already 33, and well past his offensive peak seasons.

But perhaps an even better indication of what a PRIME Wilt would have done, was the H2H comparison between a prime Kareem (Kareem's BEST statistical seasons were in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons) and Thurmond. Thurmond held Kareem to 44% shooting collectively in those three post-seasons (Kareem NEVER shot close to 50%...48.6, 40.5, and 42.8.)

Meanwhile, Wilt shot .536 in his three CAREER post-seasons against Thurmond (and Nate shot .376 against Wilt BTW.) BUT, even more significantly, when Wilt was in his SCORING PRIME (before the 66-67 season) he faced Thurmond a handful of games, and had THREE 30+ point games, including a game in which he outscored Thurmond, 45-13, and another in which he crushed him with a 38 point, 31 rebound game. Of course, Wilt, at his most brilliant, crushed Thurmond in the 66-67 Finals, outscoring him 17.5 - 14.3, outrebounding him, 28.5 -26.7, and outshooting him, .560 to .343.

So, one can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have done against a prime Kareem?

[Fatal9]

at this clown's trolling. I mean seriously, this dude hides (and lies) about so much that it's shocking. Like he'll tell you Wilt shot 53% against Thurmond but not that Wilt averaged 12 ppg against him in those series. He'll tell you of Wilt's '67 series against him, but not Kareem's '71 series vs. Thurmond where Kareem averaged 28/16 on 49% vs. Thurmond's 18/10 on 37% (and this is when Thurmond wasn't a twig either like he was in '67).

I debating whether it is worth responding. I've done it before but he comes back with the same crap, using the same out of context shit every time. It's almost overwhelming, because you just know how much he loves Wilt and I can't dedicate the same amount of time like him, because this troll has been known to spam countless message boards with the same essays:

http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/t2...&mode=threaded

http://actionpcsports.yuku.com/topic/5832 (here he is trolling another message board with his Wilt vs. MJ garbage)

http://actionpcsports.yuku.com/topic/364

It's just so pathetic

[ShaqAttack3234]

Obviously, you did NOT witness that series (while I DID)

Yet you have proven to be irrational fanboy, you proved that with your claims of Wilt's supposed 48" vertical and Kevin Garnett range.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=167180&page=2

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Kareem’s Image as Best Suffered in Buck Defeat
Bob Wolf
The Milwaukee Journal, April 24, 1972

When the Milwaukee Bucks won the National Basketball Association championship a year ago, there was talk that they had a dynasty in the making.

But their dynasty ended before it really began, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s reputation as the greatest center of all time was tarnished in the process.

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar’s 230.

Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.

Because of the strong defensive work of his two veteran rivals, Abdul-Jabbar often was forced away from his favorite shooting positions. He took hook shots from 12 to 15 feet away instead of from 8 to 10, and sometimes he even resorted to 15 foot jump shots.

Keep It Up

As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, “Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That’s something he doesn’t usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it.”

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory, and Bucks Coach Larry Costello said, “I don’t want Kareem taking 15 footers. You do that and you’re just not playing your game.”

But Chamberlain’s dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar’s change in tactics, and Wilt’s performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career. "[/COLOR]

Or perhaps this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[85] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[85] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his final Game 6 performance, which the Lakers won 106–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played a complete 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[86] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[86] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior."[87]"[/COLOR]

Or maybe this perspective...

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Ro.../dp/1572436727

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"Thirty years after he retired from basketball, Wilt still owns more NBA records then any player in history. Bill Russell may have won all those championships, but not even Russell was a match for Wilt statisically. Chamberlain almost always outscored and out rebounded Russell in every encounter. Russell no doubt almost always had the better teams. Abdul Jabbar played 20 seasons to Wilts 13, and yet Chamberlain has several thousand more lifetime rebounds. In the twilight of his career, a 35 year old Wilt led the Lakers to victory over the Bucks and a 25 year old Jabbar during the 1972 playoffs. Even more astounding, was wilt blocked 20 shots in two consecutive games in that series, and 11 of those blocked shots were on Kareem. Who the heck ever did that to Jabbar. Makes you wonder what Wilt would have done in his prime. As great as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson were, none of them had the impact or dominance of Wilt Chamberlain. The rules of the game were altered upon Wilts arrival into the league. Modern day fans talk of Shaq being the greatest center of all-time. Does anyone out there think Shaq could have blocked 11 Kareem shots in two games? Shaq wouldn't have been able to leap high enough to block a skyhook. That statistic alone, should be enough to convince anyone of Wilts athleticism."[/COLOR]


That 71-72 WCF series was one of FOUR I believe, in his 13 year playoff CAREER, in which Wilt was outscored by his opposing center. And in the other three, the difference was marginal. AND, I while I have not researched ALL of Wilt's 13 post-seasons, that one was also the ONLY one in which he was outshot from the floor...and that was by a .457 to .452 margin. He outshot Kareem the year before .537 to .500. And in most of those post-seasons, he was WAY ahead of the next guy.

Of course, those that look at the stats will see Kareem's 34-11 ppg edge. BUT, Kareem only shot over 50% in two of those games. He also was shut down in the 4th quarter in several. And, as mentioned above, in the clinching game six win, Wilt just overwhelmed Kareem and the Bucks in the last quarter.

Incidently Wilt outshot Kareem, in their 28 H2H games by a 53-46 margin. In their final season, BTW, in the 72-73 regular season, Kareem shot .450 to Wilt's .637.

Of course, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in that 71-72 WCF's, although to Kareem's credit, it was only by two per game. Incidently, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in their career meetings by a 18.2-17.1 rpg, even though he was well past his prime, and 11 years older.

The best indication that I can give you of what a healthy Wilt could do against Kareem, came in their first meeting in the 69-70 season. Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23, he outrebounded Kareem, 25-20, he outassisted Kareem, 5-2, he outblocked Kareem, 3-2, and, more significantly, he outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21. Unfortunately, Wilt suffered a devastating knee injury shortly after that, and was never the same again. While Kareem was a rookie, Wilt was already 33, and well past his offensive peak seasons.

But perhaps an even better indication of what a PRIME Wilt would have done, was the H2H comparison between a prime Kareem (Kareem's BEST statistical seasons were in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons) and Thurmond. Thurmond held Kareem to 44% shooting collectively in those three post-seasons (Kareem NEVER shot close to 50%...48.6, 40.5, and 42.8.)

Meanwhile, Wilt shot .536 in his three CAREER post-seasons against Thurmond (and Nate shot .376 against Wilt BTW.) BUT, even more significantly, when Wilt was in his SCORING PRIME (before the 66-67 season) he faced Thurmond a handful of games, and had THREE 30+ point games, including a game in which he outscored Thurmond, 45-13, and another in which he crushed him with a 38 point, 31 rebound game. Of course, Wilt, at his most brilliant, crushed Thurmond in the 66-67 Finals, outscoring him 17.5 - 14.3, outrebounding him, 28.5 -26.7, and outshooting him, .560 to .343.

So, one can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have done against a prime Kareem?

Let me get this straight, Kareem outscores Wilt 33.7 ppg to 11.2 ppg and Kareem was more efficient, yet Wilt outplayed him? 19.3 rpg to 17.5 rpg isn't a big enough edge.

So when Wilt had better stats than Russell, and Russell won, you claim Wilt outplayed him, yet when it's reversed and Kareem triples Wilt's scoring average on better efficiency, but loses, suddenly Wilt outplays Kareem?

Give Kareem West and Goodrich and guess what would happened.

And Wilt's '67 finals wouldn't rank anywhere near the top in NBA history. Kareem easily bettered it. 17.5 ppg on 56% shooting, particularly in the 60's hardly impresses me. Granted, '67 Wilt was probably a monster, but that series is hardly representative of that.

[jlauber]

Yes, and Kareem won a title without Magic. Magic never won without Kareem. Jordan never won without Pippen. Hakeem won only once without Drexler. Shaq won only once without Kobe. Oscar Robertson never won without Kareem. See a trend? Why single Kareem out?



Yes, and it is no coincidence Magic did not win a ring in either season. Even if Magic did not get HIV his team was not going to win anything in the rest of the 90's.

I'll tell you why...

Can't really choose between Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem. They've all had some of the greatest individual playoff runs in NBA history(Kareem in '74 and '80, Hakeem in '94 and '95 and Shaq in '00 and '01).

Wilt is clearly 4th, IMO. He had the great playoff runs in '67 and in his role, he was great in '72, but just too many failures in the playoffs. I mean he was shut down to 11.7 ppg in the finals by Russell who was in his last season and LA lost as the heavy favorite. He averaged only 13 ppg for those playoffs after averaging 20+ in the season, and the series before, his team choked away a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Division Finals to Boston. And for his career, his scoring averaged dropped almost 8 ppg.

Wilt had "failures"...but ShaqAttack does not mention the MANY "failures" of BOTH Kareem and Shaq. Jeezus, Shaq was involved in SIX sweeps, several on superior teams. Meanwhile, Kareem had a DECADE in which, year-after-year he and his team's flopped.

So, while Wilt was NINE points away from FOUR other titles (and had the officiating not been blatantly anti-Lakers in game five of the '70 Finals...it could have been FIVE)...Kareem and Shaq were getting blown out in MANY of their post-seasons.

And, Kareem gets credit for six rings...THREE of which were as a secondary player...and an argument could be for as many as FOUR.

I am not denying the greatness the Kareem and Shaq...but to just casually dismiss Chamberlain as a "failure", in which he was arguably the BEST player in EVERY post-season in which he played, and in which he outplayed his opposing center in virtually all of them (and DOMINATED them in the majority of them)...well, let's get REAL here.

[jlauber]

Yet you have proven to be irrational fanboy, you proved that with your claims of Wilt's supposed 48" vertical and Kevin Garnett range.



Let me get this straight, Kareem outscores Wilt 33.7 ppg to 11.2 ppg and Kareem was more efficient, yet Wilt outplayed him? 19.3 rpg to 17.5 rpg isn't a big enough edge.

So when Wilt had better stats than Russell, and Russell won, you claim Wilt outplayed him, yet when it's reversed and Kareem triples Wilt's scoring average on better efficiency, but loses, suddenly Wilt outplays Kareem?

Give Kareem West and Goodrich and guess what would happened.

And Wilt's '67 finals wouldn't rank anywhere near the top in NBA history. Kareem easily bettered it. 17.5 ppg on 56% shooting, particularly in the 60's hardly impresses me. Granted, '67 Wilt was probably a monster, but that series is hardly representative of that.

Of course, you look purely at stats...which is interesting since you dismiss Russell as well.

Kareem was repeatedly firing blanks in that series. Chamberlain's misses had FAR less impact. And, Chamberlain's IMPACT on the defensive end went far beyond holding Kareem to 120 points below his FG%. He was blocking shots all over the place, and intimating any Buck player that went into the lane.

As for Wilt's 66-67 season. Go ahead, put Wilt's scoring down.

How about him outscoring Russell 30-14 and outrebounding him 31-25 in the 64-65 ECF's? I don't know what their H2H FG% was , but in game seven, Wilt shot 12-15 to Russell's 7-16. In the 65-66 post-season, Wilt outscored Russell, 28-14, outrebounded him, 30-26, and while I don't know what Russell shot in that series (he shot .475 in his post-season), Wilt shot .509 in that series. In the clinching game five loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 46-18, and outrebounded him, 34-31, and shot 19-34 from the floor. In the 63-64 Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, 27-25. For the playoffs that year, Wilt shot .543, while Russell shot .356.

And, Wilt had monster numbers against Russell in the early 60's, but I agree that Russell neutralized him. Still, Wilt had some HUGE games, including a 50-35 game in game five of the 59-60 ECF's (and in a 128-107 win.)

[jlauber]

at this clown's trolling. I mean seriously, this dude hides (and lies) about so much that it's shocking. Like he'll tell you Wilt shot 53% against Thurmond but not that Wilt averaged 12 ppg against him in those series. He'll tell you of Wilt's '67 series against him, but not Kareem's '71 series vs. Thurmond where Kareem averaged 28/16 on 49% vs. Thurmond's 18/10 on 37% (and this is when Thurmond wasn't a twig either like he was in '67).

I debating whether it is worth responding. I've done it before but he comes back with the same crap, using the same out of context shit every time. It's almost overwhelming, because you just know how much he loves Wilt and I can't dedicate the same amount of time like him, because this troll has been known to spam countless message boards with the same essays:
http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/t2...&mode=threaded

http://actionpcsports.yuku.com/topic/5832 (here he is trolling another message board with his Wilt vs. MJ garbage)

http://actionpcsports.yuku.com/topic/364

It's just so pathetic

Interesting...you can't dedicate the time to respond, but you can surf the net for hours to find my posts.

Regarding the Thurmond-Wilt H2H's...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=170340&page=6

Regarding Wilt-Thurmond matchups from 66-67 thru 68-69...I can't verify which games Thurmond played in, but here are his 20+ point games...

http://www.apbr.org/wilt.html

11/4/66 30 points
11/24/66 27 points
2/4/67 23 points
3/2/67 24 points
3/14/67 21 points
4/18/67 26 points (Finals)
4/24/67 24 points (Finals...clinching win.)

1/19/68 20 points
2/27/68 33 points

2/2/69 23 points
3/31/69 22 points (playoffs)

Hopefully you (or someone) can post their H2H games between 64-65 thru 65-66. Obviously, Wilt cut back his shooting after that 65-66 season, so the games from 66-67 to the end of his career are not a real reflection of what he was capable of putting up.

Of which Julizaver responded...

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"I try some google searching - it seems that Wilt's high scoring game against Nate is from 1965-66 season - 45 points against 13 for Thurmond.
There is a game from that season in which Wilt scored 62 points and grabbed 37 rebounds against Warriors, but Nate was missing with back injury."[/COLOR]

BTW...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_NBA_...ds_in_one_game

Wilt had a 38-31 game against the Warriors on 11-27-65, and a 33-30 game against them on 12-26-65. Thurmond missed three games that year. I do believe that someone verified the 38-31 game, though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's funny, you say what else has Olajuwon done in the playoffs besides 2 titles? Hmmm, monster playoff performances like 49/24/6 in a game 7 vs Seattle in '87. Or how about '86? You love to prop up Olajuwon's finals series to diminish Bird's career(by saying Bird wasn't the best player in the series, which is laughable) yet you forget that now?

Credit to Fatal9, for this great information.

I've heard your excuse for Wilt choking away a 3-1 lead in '68, you cite Cunningham's injury yet ignore game 6 where he had more than enough help. Greer had 40 points, Wilt only 20 on 8/23 from the foul line.

And that 56 point in the '62 playoffs came on 22/48 from the field(45.8%) and 12/22 from the line(54.5%). 59 possessions to score 56 points? Yeah, I'm really impressed.

And you defend Wilt for losing in '66, yet he averaged 23 ppg on 48% shooting the first 4 games, yes he had a monster game 5, but at that point, the damage was done.

And you conveniently forget Oscar's injury in '72. Not to mention, Kareem outplayed Thurmond in '71.

And since when was I a Jordan hater or Kobe homer, Abe? By the way...Dale Davis>>>>Luke Jackson.

[jlauber]

It's funny, you say what else has Olajuwon done in the playoffs besides 2 titles? Hmmm, monster playoff performances like 49/24/6 in a game 7 vs Seattle in '87. Or how about '86? You love to prop up Olajuwon's finals series to diminish Bird's career(by saying Bird wasn't the best player in the series, which is laughable) yet you forget that now?

Credit to Fatal9, for this great information.

I've heard your excuse for Wilt choking away a 3-1 lead in '68, you cite Cunningham's injury yet ignore game 6 where he had more than enough help. Greer had 40 points, Wilt only 20 on 8/23 from the foul line.

And that 56 point in the '62 playoffs came on 22/48 from the field(45.8%) and 12/22 from the line(54.5%). 59 possessions to score 56 points? Yeah, I'm really impressed.

And you defend Wilt for losing in '66, yet he averaged 23 ppg on 48% shooting the first 4 games, yes he had a monster game 5, but at that point, the damage was done.

And you conveniently forget Oscar's injury in '72. Not to mention, Kareem outplayed Thurmond in '71.

And since when was I a Jordan hater or Kobe homer, Abe? By the way...Dale Davis>>>>Luke Jackson.

Wilt had FOUR 40-30 games in the post-season...against Russell. He had 30-30 series...against Russell. He had a 24-32-13-12 game in game one of the 67 ECF's, and in game three he grabbed a playoff record 41 rebounds. In the clinching game five blowout win of that series, he had a 29-36-13 game (on 10-16 shooting), including 22 points in the first half...while Russell put up a 4 pt, 21 rebound game, on 2-5 shooting.

When he faced the few non-HOFers in the playoffs he put up a 38-26 .521series against 4-time all-star Zelmo Beatty in '64, and a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, .612 series against Dierking in the '67 playoffs, including a then-record 19 assist game in game three (along with 16 points and 30 rebounds.)

He dominated the Knick front-court of Reed and Bellamy in the '68 EC playoffs...leading both teams in scoring, rebounding, AND assists.

I could go on for hours....

[PHILA]

And since when was I a Jordan hater or Kobe homer, Abe?

Are you an insecure uneducated bigot of an NBA fan, just like the rest of these fools? Any man with sense would know you were not the one implicated in that statement. Apparently not before your irrelevant response here that I have just had the misfortune of entertaining. It may be a very difficult pill to swallow for most, but the reality is the athletes of the 60's could play the game of basketball.

By the way...Dale Davis>>>>Luke Jackson.

You wish.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You wish.

You've seen what? Half of a game of Luke Jackson? davis put up better numbers despite playing a on a team that probably averaged something like 30 fewer possessions per game.

By the way, JLauber, I forgot to mention....you talk about Shaq's sweeps, but fail to mention Wilt get swept by a 38 win Nationals team in '61 while shooting 47%.

[PHILA]

You've seen what? Half of a game of Luke Jackson? davis put up better numbers despite playing a on a team that probably averaged something like 30 fewer possessions per game.

Luke Jackson sacrificed his individual talents and game moreso than anyone on the Sixers, for the good of the team. Several teammates have called him "the key" to that team's success.

In that game 4 footage we have, Jackson showed his capabilities finishing with 29 points and nearly 20 boards in my estimation (not sure) as the rest of the team came out flat.

[Fatal9]

I've heard your excuse for Wilt choking away a 3-1 lead in '68, you cite Cunningham's injury yet ignore game 6 where he had more than enough help. Greer had 40 points, Wilt only 20 on 8/23 from the foul line.

Not only did Wilt blow that game at the line, while Greer carried the team with 40 pts, but he got severely outplayed by a 34 year old Russell, he also had the bizzare second half in the game 7. Everyone, fans, players and even his coach was bewildered at why Wilt shot so little. Are you telling me if Wilt calls for the ball, no one would get it to him?

Here's the AP news recap of the game, titled "Wilt's Failure to Shoot a Puzzle"



Who does this in a close game 7 on their own homecourt? Wilt became the first guy to ever blow a 3-1 lead in NBA history and only two teams have ever blown it while having HCA ('95 Suns the other).

And as you mentioned the huge drop in Wilt's production in '66 while AGAIN having HCA vs. Celtics, and nearly the identical stacked team as '67. Even in his monster game 5, where he had 46 points, he blew the game with one of the worst FT performances ever as he shot 8/25 from the line.

And in '61 he got swept to a 38 win team while shooting 46.9% (apparently when Kareem shoots this poorly, he is getting outplayed ). And then the '69 series where he did little offensively and lost with a heavily favored team/situation (again). There's those horrible losing seasons he had with the Warriors ('63 and '65). There's the pathetic image of him statpadding in blowouts, playing 48 minutes in games when his team is down by 30. I mean it just goes on and on. This guy is clearly behind Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem, and it isn't even debatable. The more you look at his career year by year, the more magnified his failures become.

By the way, JLauber, I forgot to mention....you talk about Shaq's sweeps, but fail to mention Wilt get swept by a 38 win Nationals team in '61 while shooting 47%.

Yea, but 6'9, 230 lb Red Kerr would lock down Shaq too.

[jlauber]

You've seen what? Half of a game of Luke Jackson? davis put up better numbers despite playing a on a team that probably averaged something like 30 fewer possessions per game.

By the way, JLauber, I forgot to mention....you talk about Shaq's sweeps, but fail to mention Wilt get swept by a 38 win Nationals team in '61 while shooting 47%.

Yep, it was WILT's fault, and not his putrid roster's, why his team lost 3-0...after all, Wilt averaged 37 ppg, grabbed 23 rpg, and yes, shot .469 in a league that averaged .415 shooting.

Shaq's teams were swept SIX times...nearly SEVEN. And no, it was hardly Shaq's fault, either...BUT, you and the idiotic Fatal harp on Chamberlain's "failures", DESPITE the FACT that he was OVERWHELMING his opposing centers in almost EVERY post-season series in which he played, and was probably the best all-around player in EVERY series in which he played.

I mentioned this before, but it just shows how much Wilt dominated his peers. He was outscored by opposing centers in FIVE of his 29 playoff series, and FOUR of them were marginal (and none in any of his "scoring" seasons.) He was only out-shot, that I could find, in ONE, and that was by a .457 to .452 margin. AND, I could not find ONE post-season series, in which he was outrebounded. And in the MANY of those playoff series, he absolutely CRUSHED his opposing centers in some or ALL of those categories. And had blocked shots been kept, he probably would have had a HUGE edge there, as well.

To diminish what he accomplished, by listing his "failures", some of which were actually amazing losses ('62 and '65 for sure), and then to forget to mention the MANY playoff "failures" of Shaq and Kareem, is just unacceptable. My god, Kareem was outplayed in SEVERAL...even in his PRIME. And, while I will agree that Shaq dominated most of his peers (until late in his career), you can't ignore the fact that his team FLOPPED MANY times. You jump all over Wilt for losing FOUR series by a razor-thin margin (and with a myriad of LEGITIMATE excuses), but don't acknowledge that MANY of Shaq's teams were completely wiped out.

And, Kareem, not only was a HUGE disappointment in the DECADE of the 70's...he was probably only the KEY reason that his team's won six rings, in 2-3 of them in the 80's. Same with Shaq. I'll give him three, but Wade was clearly the main cog in the other.

You say West was the reason that LA won in '72. PLEASE. LA won DESPITE his playoff performances that season. Wilt won the Finals MVP...and CLEARLY, he deserved it. West shot poorly in EVERY series that post-season, and finished at .376. AND, in the cliching wins over Milwaukee and New York, it was WILT who DOMINATED those games.

So, let's at least be fair here. I have ALWAYS acknowledged Kareem's and Shaq's brilliance. BUT, Wilt was EVERY BIT as dominant.

[jlauber]

Who does this in a close game 7 on their own homecourt? Wilt became the first guy to ever blow a 3-1 lead in NBA history and only two teams have ever blown it while having HCA ('95 Suns the other).

And as you mentioned the huge drop in Wilt's production in '66 while AGAIN having HCA vs. Celtics, and nearly the identical stacked team as '67. Even in his monster game 5, where he had 46 points, he blew the game with one of the worst FT performances ever as he shot 8/25 from the line.

And in '61 he got swept to a 38 win team while shooting 46.9% (apparently when Kareem shoots this poorly, he is getting outplayed ). And then the '69 series where he did little offensively and lost with a heavily favored team/situation (again). There's those horrible losing seasons he had with the Warriors ('63 and '65). There's the pathetic image of him statpadding in blowouts, playing 48 minutes in games when his team is down by 30. I mean it just goes on and on. This guy is clearly behind Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem, and it isn't even debatable. The more you look at his career year by year, the more magnified his failures become.

A HUGE drop in production in '66? 28 ppg (he averaged 33.5 during the regular season), 30.2 rpg, (he averaged 24.6 rpg during the regular season), and shot .509 (he shot .540 during the season)...all against a center who is widely regarded as the greatest defensive center of all-time.

Regarding that game seven of the '68 ECF's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"What followed was the first of three consecutive controversial and painful Game 7s which Wilt Chamberlain played. In that Game 7, the Sixers could not get their act together: 15,202 stunned Philadelphia fans witnessed a historic 96

[catch24]

Yes, and Kareem won a title without Magic. Magic never won without Kareem. Jordan never won without Pippen. Hakeem won only once without Drexler. Shaq won only once without Kobe. Oscar Robertson never won without Kareem. See a trend? Why single Kareem out?

It's like this for every top 10 player. No one is an exception so why would Lauber use that as an example?