Greater Playoff Performer - Hakeem vs Shaq vs Kareem vs Wilt

[Duncan21formvp]

How would you rank them in order from best playoff performer to not as good playoff Performer Individually - Hakeem vs Shaq vs Kareem vs Wilt

[ShaqAttack3234]

Can't really choose between Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem. They've all had some of the greatest individual playoff runs in NBA history(Kareem in '74 and '80, Hakeem in '94 and '95 and Shaq in '00 and '01).

Wilt is clearly 4th, IMO. He had the great playoff runs in '67 and in his role, he was great in '72, but just too many failures in the playoffs. I mean he was shut down to 11.7 ppg in the finals by Russell who was in his last season and LA lost as the heavy favorite. He averaged only 13 ppg for those playoffs after averaging 20+ in the season, and the series before, his team choked away a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Division Finals to Boston. And for his career, his scoring averaged dropped almost 8 ppg.

[insidious301]

I don’t see how Wilt can be considered better than Shaq, when Shaq, the most dominant of his era, is/was clearly a better winner than Chamberlain, the most dominant of his. It's a tossup between Kareem and O'neal most definitely.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain faced a HOF center in EVERY post-season he played, and in several cases, two of them. He led FAR inferior teams to near titles. In his highes scoring seasons, he put up 37 ppg and 30 rpg post-seasons. ANd, aside from perhaps the 71-72 WCF's against Kareem, he statistically outplayed EVERY center he faced, EVERY year. As for that 71-72 WCF's, Wilt's performance was hailed as a "decisive" victory over Kareem, despite Kareem's scoring edge.

So, in REALITY, Wilt outplayed virtually every opposing center in the post-season, Kerr, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Lucas, Russell, and Kareem...and he faced them in 112 of 160 post-season games.

Not only that, but his TEAMs were outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season in which he played. The most HOF teammates he had, at one time, was TWO. He faced TWO teams with SEVEN, and two with SIX, and never LESS than FIVE.

Even in his TWO championship teams, he faced a HOF center TWICE in each post-season (Russell and Thurmond in 66-67, and Kareem and Lucas in 71-72)
AND, he outplayed them ALL. He held Russell to .358 shooting, Thurmond to .343 shooting, Kareem to .457 shooting, and Lucas (the best long-range shooter of his era) to .500 (which is deceptive...he hit 9 of his first 11 shots in the first game...and then 37 of his last 81 (.457.) AND, he outrebounded them all (he absolutely crushed Russell, by a 32-23 margin per game.)

ShaqAttack is quick to point out Wilt's "failures"...FOUR post-season game SEVEN losses, by a TOTAL of NINE points. And, he also suffered another game SEVEN loss, just four months after major knee surgery, in a series in which he outplayed the Finals MVP by a sizeable margin...and was considered the "goat."

AND, Wilt was THE greatest post-season REBOUNDER, in HISTORY. Yes, Russell held a slight edge...BUT, in EVERY H2H post-season series between the two, Wilt outrebounded him. SEVERAL of them were by HUGE margins. Of course, Wilt outrebounded ALL of his post-season opposing centers. Obviously Kareem can't make that claim, since Wilt outrebounded him in the two they met.

ShaqAttack will, of course, point out Wilt's drop in scoring in the post-season...ALTHOUGH, in Wilt's first SIX post-seasons (first SEVEN years), he averaged 33 ppg AND 26 rpg...COMBINED. And while his FG% was lower than his norm...he still outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by a solid margin...EVERY season.

Incidently, Kareem CANNOT make that claim...thanks to Wilt and Thurmond...in TWO straight playoffs in 71-72 and 72-73. In fact, Kareem was AWFUL in those two year, at .437 and .428. It was no coincidence that they came against two of three greatest defensive centers in NBA history. Kareem was also CRUSHED by Moses Malone in the 82-83 Finals as well.

In fact, before MAGIC arrived, Kareem was a HUGE disappointment in the post-season. ONE title, in a year in which Chamberlain's top-two HOF teammates were out with injuries...and in which Wilt, one year removed from major knee surgery, and 11 years older, battled him to a statistical draw. The rest of the decade of the 70's, Kareem was a "loser." He had SEVERAL teams that were heavily favored that flopped. He even took a 53-29 Laker team against a 49-33 Blazer team...and was SWEPT. He would suffer another sweep at the hands of Malone's Sixers, as well.

The real question with Kareem has to be...how much did he REALLY contribute to those five Laker titles? He did play brilliantly in the first five games of the '80 Finals. BUT, it was MAGIC, playing withOUT Kareem, in that game six, with his 42-15 game, that led the Lakers to a title. I'll give Kareem the nod in '85. But, how about the '82 Finals? Kareem averaged 18 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, and shot .531. How about Magic? 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg (yes, he outrebounded Kareem...just as he did during the season), 8.0 apg, and shot .533 from the field. AND, it was MAGIC who DOMINATED in '87, and was much more valuable in the '88 Finals.

So, IMHO, Kareem gets credit for six rings, but it was no coincidence that only ONE came BEFORE Magic. And, it was clearly Magic who was the leader in at least three, maybe even FOUR of them. Kareem was a "failure" BEFORE Magic.

Meanwhile, while Shaq led three Laker HEAVILY-FAVORED Laker teams to titles, and was a key piece on another title team,

ShaqAttack fails to point out HIS failures...

He only had ONE Final series, in his CAREER, in which he faced a HOF center...and his team was SWEPT. AND, in FIVE other post-seasons, he led teams to SWEEPING losses. Furthermore, a Kobe miracle shot saved his from still another sweep, with a favored Laker team in the '04 Finals. ONE SHOT away from SEVEN SWEEPS in the post-season.

And, yes, he put up some huge post-season numbers in his 3-peat Finals (arguably the best ever BTW), BUT, he faced the Davis-Smits clods in 99-00, and the centerless Nets in the '02 Finals. In between, he did outplay a good, but certainly not great, Motumbo.


Olajuwon's claim to fame is two titles in three Finals' appearances. In one of them Jordan did not play. That is it. How can ANYONE rate him among the top-4.


So, IMHO,

1. Wilt (he dominated his peers, won two titles, and came within an eyelash of as many as FIVE more titles.)
2. Kareem (he was less dominant, and the beneficiary of MAGIC's brilliance, but who was not involved in SO MANY embarrassing playoff sweeps as Shaq.)
3. Shaq. Great in three post-seasons, against vastly inferior competition, and pretty much embarrassed in MANY of his others.)
4. Olaujwon was great in TWO Finals. That's it.

[PHILA]

Can't really choose between Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem. They've all had some of the greatest individual playoff runs in NBA history(Kareem in '74 and '80, Hakeem in '94 and '95 and Shaq in '00 and '01).

Wilt is clearly 4th, IMO. He had the great playoff runs in '67 and in his role, he was great in '72, but just too many failures in the playoffs. I mean he was shut down to 11.7 ppg in the finals by Russell who was in his last season and LA lost as the heavy favorite. He averaged only 13 ppg for those playoffs after averaging 20+ in the season, and the series before, his team choked away a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Division Finals to Boston. And for his career, his scoring averaged dropped almost 8 ppg.

Thread starter did not (directly) ask for Wilt Chamberlain's perceived playoff failures, but rather who the top performer was of those four centers. At least the 2nd response made some semblance of an attempt to answer the question posed by Michael Jordan fan JordansBulls in this disgraceful thread.

[jlauber]

Thread starter did not (directly) ask for Wilt Chamberlain's perceived playoff failures, but rather who the top performer was of those four centers. At least the 2nd response made some semblance of an attempt to answer the question posed by Michael Jordan fan JordansBulls in this disgraceful thread.

Yeah...I love how ShaqAttack points out Wilt's "failures" (in which Wilt was the most dominant player on the floor in EVERY one of them)...and conveniently ignores Shaq's SIX post-season SWEEPS (and ONE SHOT away from SEVEN). And there were several of his teams that were favored, and were either swept, or were blown-out in five games.)

And, ShaqAttack doesn't mention the ENTIRE DECADE of the 70's, in which Kareem flopped. Nor does he give Magic, who clearly led LA to at least three, and probably ALL five of those titles (after all, Kareem was a "loser" BEFORE Magic...and even AFTER Kareem retired, Magic led LA to 63-19 and 58-24 records...WAY better than anything Kareem accomplished withOUT Magic.)

Of course, Wilt has to have been the most "snake-bit" player in NBA history. Can any other player say they were a handful of plays, or baskets, from FIVE more titles? Not to mention the HUGE injury losses in '67-68; the HORRIBLE coaching, and TWO miraculous shots in 68-69; and the HORRIBLY officiated game five in the '70 Finals.

[Duncan21formvp]

Chamberlain faced a HOF center in EVERY post-season he played, and in several cases, two of them. He led FAR inferior teams to near titles. In his highes scoring seasons, he put up 37 ppg and 30 rpg post-seasons. ANd, aside from perhaps the 71-72 WCF's against Kareem, he statistically outplayed EVERY center he faced, EVERY year. As for that 71-72 WCF's, Wilt's performance was hailed as a "decisive" victory over Kareem, despite Kareem's scoring edge.

So, in REALITY, Wilt outplayed virtually every opposing center in the post-season, Kerr, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Lucas, Russell, and Kareem...and he faced them in 112 of 160 post-season games.

Not only that, but his TEAMs were outgunned by HOFers in EVERY post-season in which he played. The most HOF teammates he had, at one time, was TWO. He faced TWO teams with SEVEN, and two with SIX, and never LESS than FIVE.

Even in his TWO championship teams, he faced a HOF center TWICE in each post-season (Russell and Thurmond in 66-67, and Kareem and Lucas in 71-72)
AND, he outplayed them ALL. He held Russell to .358 shooting, Thurmond to .343 shooting, Kareem to .457 shooting, and Lucas (the best long-range shooter of his era) to .500 (which is deceptive...he hit 9 of his first 11 shots in the first game...and then 37 of his last 81 (.457.) AND, he outrebounded them all (he absolutely crushed Russell, by a 32-23 margin per game.)

ShaqAttack is quick to point out Wilt's "failures"...FOUR post-season game SEVEN losses, by a TOTAL of NINE points. And, he also suffered another game SEVEN loss, just four months after major knee surgery, in a series in which he outplayed the Finals MVP by a sizeable margin...and was considered the "goat."

AND, Wilt was THE greatest post-season REBOUNDER, in HISTORY. Yes, Russell held a slight edge...BUT, in EVERY H2H post-season series between the two, Wilt outrebounded him. SEVERAL of them were by HUGE margins. Of course, Wilt outrebounded ALL of his post-season opposing centers. Obviously Kareem can't make that claim, since Wilt outrebounded him in the two they met.

ShaqAttack will, of course, point out Wilt's drop in scoring in the post-season...ALTHOUGH, in Wilt's first SIX post-seasons (first SEVEN years), he averaged 33 ppg AND 26 rpg...COMBINED. And while his FG% was lower than his norm...he still outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by a solid margin...EVERY season.

Incidently, Kareem CANNOT make that claim...thanks to Wilt and Thurmond...in TWO straight playoffs in 71-72 and 72-73. In fact, Kareem was AWFUL in those two year, at .437 and .428. It was no coincidence that they came against two of three greatest defensive centers in NBA history. Kareem was also CRUSHED by Moses Malone in the 82-83 Finals as well.

In fact, before MAGIC arrived, Kareem was a HUGE disappointment in the post-season. ONE title, in a year in which Chamberlain's top-two HOF teammates were out with injuries...and in which Wilt, one year removed from major knee surgery, and 11 years older, battled him to a statistical draw. The rest of the decade of the 70's, Kareem was a "loser." He had SEVERAL teams that were heavily favored that flopped. He even took a 53-29 Laker team against a 49-33 Blazer team...and was SWEPT. He would suffer another sweep at the hands of Malone's Sixers, as well.

The real question with Kareem has to be...how much did he REALLY contribute to those five Laker titles? He did play brilliantly in the first five games of the '80 Finals. BUT, it was MAGIC, playing withOUT Kareem, in that game six, with his 42-15 game, that led the Lakers to a title. I'll give Kareem the nod in '85. But, how about the '82 Finals? Kareem averaged 18 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, and shot .531. How about Magic? 16.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg (yes, he outrebounded Kareem...just as he did during the season), 8.0 apg, and shot .533 from the field. AND, it was MAGIC who DOMINATED in '87, and was much more valuable in the '88 Finals.

So, IMHO, Kareem gets credit for six rings, but it was no coincidence that only ONE came BEFORE Magic. And, it was clearly Magic who was the leader in at least three, maybe even FOUR of them. Kareem was a "failure" BEFORE Magic.

Meanwhile, while Shaq led three Laker HEAVILY-FAVORED Laker teams to titles, and was a key piece on another title team,

ShaqAttack fails to point out HIS failures...

He only had ONE Final series, in his CAREER, in which he faced a HOF center...and his team was SWEPT. AND, in FIVE other post-seasons, he led teams to SWEEPING losses. Furthermore, a Kobe miracle shot saved his from still another sweep, with a favored Laker team in the '04 Finals. ONE SHOT away from SEVEN SWEEPS in the post-season.

And, yes, he put up some huge post-season numbers in his 3-peat Finals (arguably the best ever BTW), BUT, he faced the Davis-Smits clods in 99-00, and the centerless Nets in the '02 Finals. In between, he did outplay a good, but certainly not great, Motumbo.


Olajuwon's claim to fame is two titles in three Finals' appearances. In one of them Jordan did not play. That is it. How can ANYONE rate him among the top-4.


So, IMHO,

1. Wilt (he dominated his peers, won two titles, and came within an eyelash of as many as FIVE more titles.)
2. Kareem (he was less dominant, and the beneficiary of MAGIC's brilliance, but who was not involved in SO MANY embarrassing playoff sweeps as Shaq.)
3. Shaq. Great in three post-seasons, against vastly inferior competition, and pretty much embarrassed in MANY of his others.)
4. Olaujwon was great in TWO Finals. That's it.

How did Wilt dominate his peers when his ppg dropped by 8 ppg? Hakeem's numbers increased from season to playoffs.

[jlauber]

How did Wilt dominate his peers when his ppg dropped by 8 ppg? Hakeem's numbers increased from season to playoffs.

Take a look at how Wilt played against his PEERS, most all of whom were in the HOF. He DOMINATED THEM. I don't give a rats ass about his scoring dropping. His rebounding and defense were the best of his era.

[che guevara]

Another Shaqattack - Jlauber debate brewing. These are always entertaining. In order:

1. Shaq
2. Kareem (very close to Shaq, could even be 1A/1B)
3. Hakeem
4. Wilt

[jlauber]

And of course, when Wilt's scoring drops, it is from 50 ppg BTW. He averaged 33 ppg in his first six post-seasons, with FOUR 50 point games. How many 50 point playoff games did Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem have?

[jlauber]

Another Shaqattack - Jlauber debate brewing. These are always entertaining. In order:

1. Shaq
2. Kareem (very close to Shaq, could even be 1A/1B)
3. Hakeem
4. Wilt

Ok, I'll bite...

Give me YOUR reasons....

[PHILA]

Rank these playoff performers from best to worst:

Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell

[jlauber]

Rank these playoff performers from best to worst:

Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell

Easy...

1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Olajuwon

[PHILA]

Easy...

1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Olajuwon

Indeed, would also like to hear other opinions on the matter as well. Is this strictly a discrimination against Chamberlain alone or his contemporaries as well?

[che guevara]

Ok, I'll bite...

Give me YOUR reasons....

Similar reasons to everybody else - his production and efficiency dropped in the playoffs. I'm assuming you're angry that I ranked Wilt last.